Carmenm or whoever,

Never been to Wonderland. Made it to Disneyworld last year though. I have been to other countries more than a few times. From what I can tell, here on earth, where us humans belong, the U.S. is as close as a person can come.
Perfect, no. But I am a mere tradesman and I have a lifestyle here most people in other countries could only envy. Sure, I work myself to death, but here, you see, it's worth it.
It's true that most of us in the U.S. are forced to labor for the necessities of life, but that's what makes us a productive and competitive people. I've seen a lot of the rest of the world and have enough friends in other countries. Oh yes, the U.S. is good about having a selection of people from other countries. If you could only talk to them about why they're here. And they'd all agree, if you can't make it in the U.S., you can't survive anywhere.
As for riots and other dissatified member in the U.S, that's their choice. Unfortunately there is a myth here, developed by the welfare-state undoubtably, that there exist a shortcut to a good life here in the U.S. Perhaps "Wonderland" even.
I love your country and I am familiar with much of it's history. I know that the communist in Austuria took one hell of a beating even before 1936 by Franco's troops. At times I even dream about living in Spain. But I have enough friends in Spain and am familiar enough with their lives to know better. Also, my last trip to Spain showed me the seemier side of the justice system there.
To end this rambling, I know you're just as proud of your country as I am mine, and well you should be. But giving away the necessities of life just because a person exist is not an American idea.

If I am not mistaken, carmenm and Cristobo Carrin are the same person who changed his name in order to avoid whatever personal component that may be involved in the discussions, anybody can tell things sometimes get personal. I personally cannot care less since the views were exactly the same and I could tell it was the same person. A different story would be that he had created a nick to support his views, so I dont think it is fair to say that Carmenm lives in a different world from Cristobo or always remind him of the change in nicks! Other attitudes are more reprobable and nobody seems to care!

Gazpacho, it is great to be proud of your country, but easy to talk from the position of somebody with economic security. You live in a great country with great things, but things are not perfect, neither in the US or in Spain or anywhere. Just take the time to look out of your window to poor neighborhoods, homeless people and not so poor people trying to get a proper treatment for their illnesses bc their expensive medical insurances do not cover anything!

I cannot remember how many times I have heard the statement: 'nobody wants to be poor anywhere, but much less in America'. I have heard it mainly from europeans and not because we are anti-american or believe that we are better, that would be childish reasoning, but because maybe our systems are more concerned about welfare and social needs, but we are also aware that our systems are not perfect and that we do not manage to cater for the needs of all.

Jonsoniana,

I have enjoyed your posts, although in many cases, I have not shared your point of view, nevertheless, I enjoy them because it allowed me to see your point of view and that is important, you have honestly stated your convictions, and I respect that.

In the above post you state: That is precisely what his action accomplished, he created Carmenm to support his views. I see that as dishonest and disingenuous. Carmenm does not exist as separate individual as we are led to believe because of the different user profile. He asserts he is Cristobo Carrin not Carmenm. Do you think it honest for me to create an alternative personna to win my arguments, to convince others, and to insult others, as the character carmenm did to NewYorkRed in a different thread, just to win my arguments? Frankly it lacks all semblance of versimilitude.

I respectfully disagree with you, it does matter.

If it does not matter, then we can all do whatever it takes to win our argument, even if it means making up several phony personnas to annoy and give credence where none exists.

Booklady,

Reading your posting I realize I did not explain things clearly enough, sorry. Obviously, Carmen and Cristobo had the same idas, so in that sense carmen supports Cristobo, no doubt about that, what I meant to say is that, as far as I can remember and if I am wrong I am happy to admit my mistake, they do not make reference to each other and they dont praise each other, so Cristobo did not create a fan club, so to speak.

If you ask me, I would not do it, but when people admit what they do, we should give them some credit, don't we all make mistakes? Should we be judged constantly by them? He explained his reasons and seeing the tone of some discussions one cannot help feeling that they sometimes get personal, so I take his word for his reasons to do so. he could have said nothing or denied what he had done and we could suspect it, but never know for sure. I just say it is not that big of an issue bc I trust his word on why he did it and value that he has admitted it, that's all. I am not his advocate, but I feel that he has been systematically criticized and discredited, every single thing...he normally provides evidence for what he says. This is not a battle for truth, we all say what we think and give our reasons, we are not going to change our minds and sometimes the debate gets too heated and almost personal. Sometimes people lose perspective and become sort of rude, most people have made some 'unfortunate' comments. Lets not make Cristobo guilty of everything.

As I say, I am not his advocate and was just giving my opinion on the issue. As we see here on a daily basis, we all take things in different ways.

gazpacho, I forgot to say somethin in my last posting, one of the things I have always liked about the USA is that I believe it is the place where I think hard work pays off the most and it is rewarded, but in life one is never safe from adverse circumnstances and it is good to know that we can always count on some help, but honestly, I doubt anybody likes to live on welfare, it surely does not provide you with a good life! Welfare and social security is not there to take there of lazy people, even though one cannot help that some people take advantge from the system...things are hardy ever perfect!

Jonsoniana,

Funny you should mention looking out my window, especially since we are within one week of tax time here in the U.S. I look out my window, see my neighbors houses. I look at my income tax form, both my federal and state, and see the rather large percentage I am required to give our government to pay for homeless and poor people who cannot afford health insurance. Then I realize all my neighbors must be burdened similarly. And yet...to no great surprise...there are still poor people and people who cannot afford health care. What is wrong?!?!?
If all were taken away from me and I was penniless tomorrow, I know that in a month's time I could provide for my family. I have the opportunity to do that here. I have not had an idle life waiting for people to give me things. I have knocked on doors of people who require my labor. I have not been afraid to get my hands dirty. I've cleaned toilets, washed dishes and raked leaves at times to earn a living. And while I did this I learned. I took every opportunity to educate myself so that now I know enough to make a good living.
Economic security? Don't know of any. But if there was such a thing it would be opportunity, and that's what the U.S. is about.

Please see post below.
Thank you

Jonsoniana,
Perhaps you did not understand my point of view. You write: "Lets not make Cristobo guilty of everything." I am not. I reminded him that since he admitted who he was that he should stop using the other fictional character. Only those of us that participated on this thread know that Mr. Carrin is Carmenm. If he continues to use both names he perpetuates his fiction, and then you and I by acquiescing become part of the dishonesty. I will not continue to be part of that farce.

Yes, I will continue to respond to his posts, regardless of whether we hold the same point of view or not.

No, I will not respond to a fictional character, and hope that this was a mistake on Mr. Carrin's part, and he will stop using his alter ego.

You say that the Carmenm character did not give credence to Mr. Carrin. I respectfully disagree with you. He did so tacitly and by implication of the argument. Carmenm was an ally character.
Let's say that, right now, I make up a character and have that character take Mr. Carrin to task as well. While that persona did not mention my name directly, we are still in collusion, in a dishonest collusion being played on candid people like ourselves who hold our beliefs dear, particularly in this thread. If we all break the rules of civil discourse, then what is the use of discussing these serious topics?

I may be the only voice on this thread that feels this way, and that is ok with me, I have the courage of my convictions, I do not need a patsy to fight my battles.

p.s. For an example of my point go to the other Iraq War thread, look at Carmenm post on 2-20-2003,5:12p.m., then see Mr. Carrín's defense of the content of Carmenm's post 2-25-2003 8:03.

Jonsoniana,

I believe Booklady's response was clear enough. It's obvious that carmenm/carrin was using the two names to post as if an ally to his/herself.

I'm not going to belabor this point because it no longer matters. Whether Carrin or carmenm, we long since have found that the posts were akin to watching "Baghdad Bob" on TV, as he describes how the Coalition forces aren't even near Baghdad yet.

Wolf

Booklady:
Yes, you are right, it was a mistake. I just logged as Carmenm to check a private message which was sent to that nick. That`s all!
I think you were along with us during the thread about WWII, when the Dresden issue started. Do you remember what point was reached? I just thought then 'perhaps it was my fault, let`s start again'. I enjoy debates, but I hate when things grow personal. It is great to exchange views with cultivated people who think opposed to me, but I don`t need to participate in an awkward exchange of more-or-less-polite insults. If I liked that, I would see "Cronicas Marcianas" (the Spanish version of Jerry Springer) instead of logging MM. And things had reached THAT point. Now that time has passed, I sincerely believe that not only me is to blame for that.
And madam, no matter what my nick was, the things I told you about Asturias were totally true! I am happy you found them interesting...

Wolf
It is ‘obvious’ that I changed my nick, mainly, to give you another chance. That is all. But you can`t tell ‘the enemy’ and one fellow who simply happens to think different. Even more, in the former debate, the WWII one, I just gave up reading your replies, I was growing stressed and thought ‘it is stupid to have a bad time for such a silly reason’. I like debates, but not SO much.
You know what? I dislike Gazpacho`s ideas much more than yours. But I prefer his post than yours, he is just not so agressive (not so far, at least).
TAKE IT EASY!!!