Fernando has brought out an interesting topic, in a post included at " Asturias " thread. Does Spanish nationalism exist?
In my opinion, definitively it does.
The unification of Spanish kingdoms into one only state started when the Borbonic dynasty reached the throne, in 1714, and has not ended yet. It is obvious that "unification" followed close the French model.
But it failed. The difference lies, in my opinion, on the fact that in France, regions bore no economical power, they were underdeveloped compared to the Ile de France area, while in Spain, Castile had no power enough to smash Basques and Catalans, and so they chose to resist asimilation...until this very day.
Today, there is a subtle struggle between "separatists" and "unionists". It is a political and ideological struggle, of course. After Franco`s death, the idea of Spain had started to become impopular, since so many crimes had been commited in the name of Spain. After 25 years, however, Spaniards have retrieved their pride, and continuously tend to fight against anti-Spanish nationalism.
Let`s take Jon Juaristi, for instance. This Basque man, formerly a member of ETA, is now pro-Spanish. He wrote a couple of essays where he attacks the PNV, and got the "Premio Nacional de Ensayo". Then he was named to direct the National library, obviously as a reward for his loyalty. It was too obvious, however, and was soon resigned...only to become leader of the "Instituto Cervantes", and work to promote Spanish culture all over the world. Spaniards love him, because he has provided them lots of arguments to fight against Basque nationalists.
The 6th of December, the 12th of October, the "Premios Principe de Asturias", the "Premios Cervantes"...almost every day there is a good ocasion to celebrate "hispanidad", and "our common culture with Hispanic America". The way Spaniards behold their past is totally chauvinistic. No one asked forgiveness to Cuba, in 1998, for the horrors of the war there. No one bothered to learn from the mistakes that were commited there, and learn from them to deal with the current crisis of Spanish identity. All you found, in tabloids like " La Razón ", or " ABC ", is chauvinism.
Fernando, if Spanish nationalism doesn`t exist...what is Alfonso Ussia, then? And Luis Maria Anson? And Antonio Burgos, and all the others?
Yesterday, 1st of January, early in the morning, you could check in Onda Cero the way "history is over". They made a long interview to a historian who stated that Franco was a patriot, and saved Spain from disaster. No one argued with him, and the journalist asked him all the questions respectfully.
Before you start to talk about "free speech", let me ask you: Would Luis del Olmo ever interview any member of HB? Would he make an interview to any revisionist nazi, who said that Auschwitz didn`t exist? You know he wouldn`t. The fact is, certain ideas are still acceptable, simply if they support Spanish unity. Everything is OK, only if works for Spain.

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Message by MadridMan:
SOMETHING VERY STRANGE HAPPENED HERE!!
I believe I recall this posting was by FERNANDO, but soon after his posting, his name was removed and I don't know why other than the possibility it was changed during the problems with the message board in the last couple of days. Fernando, would you like to claim this posting??
*********************

I'm going to answer this thread once, I don't want to heat up the BBS nor I want to bore people with this topic.

In my point of view:

Spanish nationalism does not exist. Nationalism is a way of thinking of people who feel they belong to a nationality different of the country they belong to.

There are common characteristics between all the nationalisms in Spain: victimism, hate to everything that smells to Spain, historical grievances rooted to Franquismo and even before, etc...

This is the most inconsistent one I have heard of in my whole life. I know dozens of asturians who are proud of being both asturians and spaniards, I don't know any single one who says the contrary.

Spain didn't followed french model in its "unification". France is a central state, in which not any single department has autonomy nor can they make laws for themselves. Asturias, as every other community, has transferred most of the power and half the public money via taxes. Asturias have a parlament, manages the health system and other public services.

"The unification of Spanish kingdoms into one only state started when the Borbonic dynasty reached the throne, in 1714, and has not ended yet. It is obvious that "unification" followed close the French model."

False. The Astur-leonés Kingdom merged with the Castilian Kingdom in 1037 thanks to a marriage. The unification of what it is Spain today happened in 1515 with another marriage (Catholic Kings) and the anexion of Navarra. Therefore: Asturias was not anexed but merged with another proto-state, the unification ended in 1515 and it has nothing to do with the formation of the french state which was never as fragmented as Italy, Germany or Spain.

"But it failed. The difference lies, in my opinion, on the fact that in France, regions bore no economical power, they were underdeveloped compared to the Ile de France area, while in Spain, Castile had no power enough to smash Basques and Catalans, and so they chose to resist asimilation...until this very day."

¿? It failed? It didn't since we are one country. Castile never fighted "Basques" (that didn't exist as a country but as counties that were the origins of Castile) nor the Catalans, who didn't exist as "Catalans" but as a county if the Aragonese Kingdom, which volutarly merged with the Castile Kingdom by the marriage of Elisabeth and Ferdinand, the Catholic kings.

"Today, there is a subtle struggle between "separatists" and "unionists"."

This is a joke, isn't it? What a unionist is? We are not in Ulster...

"It is a political and ideological struggle, of course. After Franco`s death, the idea of Spain had started to become impopular, since so many crimes had been commited in the name of Spain. After 25 years, however, Spaniards have retrieved their pride, and continuously tend to fight against anti-Spanish nationalism."

Again victimism and modification of the history. After Franco's death what happened is that we went to the other side of the balance. Franco enhanced that much the "spanish patriotism" and pursued that much the different spanish cultures and languages that when the democracy come spaniards want nothing but to forget all related with Spain. Now it has been 27 years from Franco's death, I was born when he was already death. And now I realize that this anti-Spain attitude has nothing of positive but is destructive. We have to find the middle, respect each others differences while keeping very high the pryde of being spaniard (which has nothing of franquist). You may live rooted to the past, I'm sure I will not, and that I will unveil any lie you try us to accept. Remember that it is not Spain which is going against you, but you going against Spain. You might claim your independence of Spain without lying, just say: "I feel asturian and not spaniard and I want to be independent", you don't need "...because Spain is smashing our culture, they are all very fascist and bla bla bla".

Wow, how intolerant Spain is if we accept a ex-ETA member to be president of Instituto Cervantes... I've yet to see the same "intolerance" in other democratic countries... Of course for you his only merit is to have "attacked" basque nationalists...

"The 6th of December, the 12th of October, the "Premios Principe de Asturias", the "Premios Cervantes"...almost every day there is a good ocasion to celebrate "hispanidad", and "our common culture with Hispanic America"."

6th of December: Constitution day in which Spain celebrates the start of our democracy. Did you prefer franquism then?

In fact, do you want us to renegate to our nationality to make you feel more comfortable? Can't we all spaniards celebrate any single holiday? Don't we have common links to Hispanoamerica to find points of understanding with those countries? Didn't famous asturian nobles found lots of cities there?

"The way Spaniards behold their past is totally chauvinistic. NZ

[ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Merriam-Webster's OnLine Dictionary has this to say about:

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
nationalism: na·tion·al·ism
Date: 1844
: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

I point this out because one of my closest friends (and house-mate) is Spanish, from Asturias. Her family heritage and Spanish culture sure doesn't include Andalucian guitars, flamenco, and grape picking, but she would bristle if anyone thought she wasn't FIRST a Spanaird - even if her identity was influenced in Asturias.

Someone previously mentioned "being patriotic, but not nationalistic."

Now, this is what Webster says about:

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
patriotism : pa·tri·ot·ism
Date: circa 1726
: love for or devotion to one's country
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

Ahh, I think it was Fernando who thought it was better to be patriotic, rather than nationalistic. After a careful review of the two words' definitions I would say I COULDN'T AGREE MORE with Fernando.

Nationalism implies a feeling of superiority, while patriotism (in strict accord with definition) is simply a love and loyalty to one's country. I, too, see my self as patriotic and not nationalistic to the USA.

Patiotism is healthy for a nation, while nationalism - with all its arrogance - is truly corrosive!

[ 01-05-2002: Message edited by: JJP ]

Yes, that message was mine. I don't know what happened (probably the server made something to it). The last part has also dissapeared, so I will try to reproduce it here.

I'm going to answer this thread once, I don't want to heat up the BBS nor I want to bore people with this topic.

In my point of view:

Spanish nationalism does not exist. Nationalism is a way of thinking of people who feel they belong to a nationality different of the country they belong to.

There are common characteristics between all the nationalisms in Spain: victimism, hate to everything that smells to Spain, historical grievances rooted to Franquismo and even before, etc...

This is the most inconsistent one I have heard of in my whole life. I know dozens of asturians who are proud of being both asturians and spaniards, I don't know any single one who says the contrary.

Spain didn't followed french model in its "unification". France is a central state, in which not any single department has autonomy nor can they make laws for themselves. Asturias, as every other community, has transferred most of the power and half the public money via taxes. Asturias have a parlament, manages the health system and other public services.

"The unification of Spanish kingdoms into one only state started when the Borbonic dynasty reached the throne, in 1714, and has not ended yet. It is obvious that "unification" followed close the French model."

False. The Astur-leonés Kingdom merged with the Castilian Kingdom in 1037 thanks to a marriage. The unification of what it is Spain today happened in 1515 with another marriage (Catholic Kings) and the anexion of Navarra. Therefore: Asturias was not anexed but merged with another proto-state, the unification ended in 1515 and it has nothing to do with the formation of the french state which was never as fragmented as Italy, Germany or Spain.

"But it failed. The difference lies, in my opinion, on the fact that in France, regions bore no economical power, they were underdeveloped compared to the Ile de France area, while in Spain, Castile had no power enough to smash Basques and Catalans, and so they chose to resist asimilation...until this very day."

¿? It failed? It didn't since we are one country. Castile never fighted "Basques" (that didn't exist as a country but as counties that were the origins of Castile) nor the Catalans, who didn't exist as "Catalans" but as a county if the Aragonese Kingdom, which volutarly merged with the Castile Kingdom by the marriage of Elisabeth and Ferdinand, the Catholic kings.

"Today, there is a subtle struggle between "separatists" and "unionists"."

This is a joke, isn't it? What a unionist is? We are not in Ulster...

"It is a political and ideological struggle, of course. After Franco`s death, the idea of Spain had started to become impopular, since so many crimes had been commited in the name of Spain. After 25 years, however, Spaniards have retrieved their pride, and continuously tend to fight against anti-Spanish nationalism."

Again victimism and modification of the history. After Franco's death what happened is that we went to the other side of the balance. Franco enhanced that much the "spanish patriotism" and pursued that much the different spanish cultures and languages that when the democracy come spaniards want nothing but to forget all related with Spain. Now it has been 27 years from Franco's death, I was born when he was already death. And now I realize that this anti-Spain attitude has nothing of positive but is destructive. We have to find the middle, respect each others differences while keeping very high the pryde of being spaniard (which has nothing of franquist). You may live rooted to the past, I'm sure I will not, and that I will unveil any lie you try us to accept. Remember that it is not Spain which is going against you, but you going against Spain. You might claim your independence of Spain without lying, just say: "I feel asturian and not spaniard and I want to be independent", you don't need "...because Spain is smashing our culture, they are all very fascist and bla bla bla".

Wow, how intolerant Spain is if we accept a ex-ETA member to be president of Instituto Cervantes... I've yet to see the same "intolerance" in other democratic countries... Of course for you his only merit is to have "attacked" basque nationalists...

"The 6th of December, the 12th of October, the "Premios Principe de Asturias", the "Premios Cervantes"...almost every day there is a good ocasion to celebrate "hispanidad", and "our common culture with Hispanic America"."

6th of December: Constitution day in which Spain celebrates the start of our democracy. Did you prefer franquism then?

In fact, do you want us to renegate to our nationality to make you feel more comfortable? Can't we all spaniards celebrate any single holiday? Don't we have common links to Hispanoamerica to find points of understanding with those countries? Didn't famous asturian nobles found lots of cities there?

"The way Spaniards behold their past is totally chauvinistic. No one asked forgiveness to Cuba, in 1998, for the horrors of the war there. No one bothered to learn from the mistakes that were commited there, and learn from them to deal with the current crisis of Spanish identity."

Forgiveness for what? Wars are always horrible. That war in 1898 against Cuba and the USA was the independence war. Historicly Spain did what it was expected to do: Defend a province's (I say province, not a colony, they had senators in Madrid) belonging to our country. That has nothing of chauvinistic. In fact, I'm sure some of our presidents said sorry for these wars. Do you thing either Cuba or USA have a grief with us for that war?

"All you found, in tabloids like "La Razón", or "ABC", is chauvinism."

Tabloids? One can like those NEWSPAPERS or not. Share their points or views or not. If you don't like them, don't buy them and don't read them, but we live in democracy and even the media you don't like have the right to exist.

"Fernando, if Spanish nationalism doesn`t exist...what is Alfonso Ussia, then? And Luis Maria Anson? And Antonio Burgos, and all the others?"

Alfonso Ussía is both a writer and a journalist.

Luis María Anson is the president of La Razón, a journalist and a member of the Royal Acamdamy of Spanish Language.

Antonio Burgos is a journalist and a writer.

Nothing more nothing less. Perhaps you would want them to be jailed for their ideas. I don't share their ideas, but I respect them and I feel they are necessary to keep a balance.

"Before you start to talk about "free speech", let me ask you: Would Luis del Olmo ever interview any member of HB? Would he make an interview to any revisionist nazi, who said that Auschwitz didn`t exist? You know he wouldn`t."

I'm glad he doesn't. If you can't distinguish between a historician who thinks that Franco did also good things and someone who deny the fact that the nazis tortured and killed millions of jews you are insane.

Moreover, HB is the political arm of ETA, they are as terrorists as them. It seems you like them, and therefore you support ETA. You know that HB has nothing to do with independentism. EA (basque democratic independentists) and PNV (basque nationalists) have been in the radios and TVs (even HB have been in some of them, I recall once in Antena 3). A journalist have the right to invite whoever he wants, and there is nothing you can accuse him of.

"The fact is, certain ideas are still acceptable, simply if they support Spanish unity. Everything is OK, only if works for Spain."

¿? So you would want us all (spaniards) to be against our own country? If you want your region to be independent from Spain you have the right to, but please don't try to convince us that there are historical reasons and that Spain has deny of the asturian culture because it is false. You want to be independent and that is enough of a reason (as long as you pursue it by democratic means).

Fernando

Last time I bothered replying some of the coarsest mistakes in Fernando posts, my message just didn`t appear. Technical problems, I guess. Anyway, I am afraid I don`t have much time, so I won`t try again to explain why do I think (along with most of historians) that the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella (in 1469) didn`t unify anything, or why the liberal policy from 1812 on, follows close the French model of shaping a nation out of several different peoples.
But I can`t help stating a couple of things that must stand clear as daylight.
I DON`T SUPPORT ETA, I regard them as a bunch of assasins. But I have realized the defenders of the idea of Spain often shelter in the evil of ETA to avoid facing a couple of facts, like the distinct an longing will ot the Basques to form a separate country. Remember, Fernando, there are thousands of Spanish subjects, like me, who hate both ETA and the GAL. I demand an apologize.
Ussia is a bad journalist, and a VERY BAD writer. And his hate towards Basque nationalism is simply insane
Anson is an interesting character, close supporter of the monarchy, director of a tabloid called "La Razon", which dishonors the very word "Journalism". This man, who led the official news agency "EFE" during Franquist period, tried to promote a hard controlling law for the media in the early eighties, which was widely supported...by Sovietic authorities. No wonder his experience will help him to lead a newspaper in democratic Spain
And Antonio Burgos, well...simply read him and you will understand me.
As to my being mad, I wonder what are exactly the rules in this message board, if such a straight offense can stand for one week. Fernando Suarez, was the name of the historian, didn`t say that Franco made a couple of good things (like What?). He said he was the saver of Spain, which was on the brink of disaster. If you don`t understand why is it as inmoral to support the nazis, ETA and Franco, all I can say is just READ, my friend, READ and then dare saying something.
May I suggest you one, just one book?
"El Mito de la Cruzada de Franco", by Herbert Southworth. Read, and learn what happened in Madrid, in the early fourties, or in Badajoz just after the "deliverance" of the "crusaders".
And one more thing, I think the way you referred to the "victimism" of anti-Spanish nationalists is inmoral. You don`t know anything about what happened, say, in Gipuzkoa during the state of Siege, in the late 60s and early 70s. You have never heard of the massacre of Pamplona, in the feasts of San Fermin in 1978...
Well, to hell with it. It is not worth the pain.

Oh, it is too easy...
The war of Cuba, Fernando, was not a war between the US and the Spanish crown. It was a 20 years war between Cuban partisans and Spanish soldiers (and volunteers, too). During this war, Spanish generals locked most of the civilians, from rural areas, in concentration camps. What do you think of it? One more Spanish contribution to Western civilization. They locked them in those camps, and 200 000 of them died, men, women and children. Cubans still hold begrudge for that reason, mostly because the Cuban genocide is almost forgotten.
The wars are horrible indeed, but the war of Cuba was, in addition to that, particularly stupid. Spain went on sending soldiers long after it had been militarly lost. It was a stupid waste of lives, but apparently our dear generals, landowners, bishops and monarchs believed it was all worth...for the pity of Spain`s glory.
Cuba was a Spanish "province", not a colony, because the colonial process in Spanish overseas territories follow the XVI century model. Cuba was a Spanish province just as Ireland was a British one. But the opression, and the corruption of Spanish-born elites there, was much more ashaming.
Again, Fernando, read. And from time to time, read something which wasn`t written by Ricardo de la Cierva.
It is very hilarating your mention to the "respect" towards a TABLOID like "La Razón". The fact that it is printed on paper, or the fact that it doesn`t break any law in the meanwhile, doesn`t make a newspaper out of "La Razon". It still stinks.
Ah, y tomatelo con calma, que me parece que te estas exaltando. Esto se supone que es un debate civilizado, ¿No?

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

I have no business making comments (only questions) on this thread. I have no intellecutal understanding of Spanish Nationalism, on the level of this discussion.

I just want to comment that the only problem with this type (message-board) communication is with "tone" and "perceived-respect." It is my belief that most all on this site are respectful (or try to be) to one-another.

I guess I just don't want this thread going down into a burning, exploding mess of anger and misunderstandings.

I know this for sure (just look at the "Spanish Terrorism" thread, and the comments between Wolf and I). Our "anger" with each other was really just based in total misunderstandings, and sterotypes of one another that dictated our responses to each other.

Can you tell I'm hungry for more discussion on this sensitive subject? I am...

I said: "I'm going to answer this thread once" and therefore I'm not going to answer anything more about this topic. Whenever you want, you can discuss it with me privately (as long as you don't call me "cateto" as in your last private message).

However, you have vehemently demanded both publicly and privately an apologize from me.

I said:-"It seems you like them, and therefore you support ETA". Perhaps it has not been correctly understood. I should have sayed: It seems you like them, and in that case you would be supporting ETA. That is what I meant and for that I don't ask for apologizes, I beg you perdon if I offended you due to an incorrect tense.

"As to my being mad, I wonder what are exactly the rules in this message board, if such a straight offense can stand for one week."

I didn't call you mad. I literally said "If you can't distinguish between a historician who thinks that Franco did also good things and someone who deny the fact that the nazis tortured and killed millions of jews you are insane."
Again conditional tense.

Best regards.

Fernando

So tell me, everyone. How does someone, someone like ME who knows little of "Spanish Nationalism", keep things ... well... calm? Maybe this IS calm. I don't know. I've had too many glasses for Spanish sangria and reading this and thinking, "Why is this such a HOT topic? This is a travel-focused message board!" Sure, its interesting, even enlightening, and maybe even necessary in understanding the Spanish psyche, but come on! How many times have I had to CUT a HEATED discussion about ETA and Terrorism and whatever else? And how many times have I had to do this when the MOST passionate statements were made by Spaniards themselves?? Well.... I love ALL the Spaniards - I REALLY do - and I appreciate your points of view, opinions, and beliefs. But really... REALLY! MadridMan's ALL SPAIN Message Board is mainly intended as a travel-related tool. As I say, as I "put" as the description in all the search engines when I submit this part of my website:
A little bit of politics is fine for a travel-focused message board. And I can understand how points-of-view can get intense. And I DO NOT want to force ANYONE, ESPECIALLY the Spaniards, from the message board. Please, share your ideas.. fine... but remember, this really is a travel-to-Spain focused message board. Thank you very much. Keep the peace.

Saludos, MadridMan

I would only say that many on this message board view this as a community, and use your site as a virtual coffee-shop or bar. A place where a diverse group can come together to discuss much that in regards to Spain.

It's interesting, in my opinion there are possibly three demographics to the message board paticipants.

- Simply seeking travel opinions in relation to Spain.

- Observing, but not posting, to take in the flavor of the interaction.

- The others, and I see my self in this group, really enjoy interacting amongst travel oriented Americans and Spaniards. People who like interacting with other cultures.

I think Nationalism is part of the Spanish mindset, and find any respectful posts involving "politics" very interesting. In my quest to better understand Spanish people and thier culture, these types of threads are informative.

However, MadridMan, you have every right to focus the message board. I'll respect whatever you decide, but just wanted to state my relevance to these types of topics.

Thanks

In other words, NO SPANISH-BASED FLAME WARS.


[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: CS ]