sdavidr,

I've often thought about the same question about the nazi's being considered right-wing. To me they are just another party that relies on a collective to gain power over a state. The right-wing values I'm familiar with emphasize individuality and freedom. To me, the form of totalitarianism they impose is just another form of communism.

I guess they rely on coorporations more to provide for their goods, but like every good socialist system, there is always a government operative telling them how to run there business.

Bill,

As far as Franco goes, he undoubtably was a dictator and as an American, we naturally dispise anyone who is.

I don't know the entire history of Franco, especially after the war, but I do know three things he should be remembered fondly for. He kept Spain out of WWII, he didn't persecute the Jews, in fact quite the opposite, and a tourist like me were free to walk the streets of Madrid at night. As dictators,and butchers go, he was a Boy Scout compared to Hitler, Stalin or even Mousolini.

But I realize that even now, many Spaniards have bad feelings about him, and I apologize if I seem to be commending him. I just don't believe the man was total evil.

I don't know how bad as a person or dictator Franco was. However, during the 80's (I was still a kid) many of my older relatives, most of them now death, expressed their frustration with the Spanish economy and wished Franco was still in power. I never really understood this positive sentiment towards Franco. But it showed me that, especially at the end of his regime, Franco wasn't totally bad for some people. Obviously, 30 years later things look better for Spain and is obvious that Spain is much better without a dictator. I'm not saying my family wanted Franco back, just that at some point it seemed to them that the spanish economy was doing worse without Franco. But I don't really know I was just a kid and I have never lived in Spain.

Not all bad? Even Mussolinini and, of all people, Himmler, were apalled by the scale of the repression - mass executions - unleashed on Spain by the victorious Franco.

Bill,

There was a thread a few years back on Valle de los Caídos (Valley of the Fallen) but I couldn't find it doing a search - MM, have you changed the search function set-up?

I was there once - against my will - and I don't think anything could ever get me near the place again. I can't refer to it as a monument - to me it is anything but!

Anyway, if the thread is located you might be interested in some of the comments ....

Barry, can you name a place and a date for those mass executions which made Himmler good?

Both sides of the Spanish Civil War committed war crimes and killed soldiers and civilians. "Nationals" bombed Guernica with the aid of the Luftwaffe, and "Republicans" took 8,000 civilians in Madrid and killed them (without any reason but being "fascist", that is, not thinking like the sovietish petty chiefs in charge in Madrid) in Paracuellos del Jarama.

Franco had the support of most of the army, and received support from Hitler and Mussolini (who wanted to test their new weapons and stop Stalin from having a head of bridge in Southern Europe).

The Republican Government vanished as anarchists and communists took control and started a sovietic revolution with the aid of the URSS. One of the first measures of this government was to transport all the gold of the Bank of Spain (a lot of gold historicly comming from our possessions in South and Central America) to Moscow to receive Stalin's support (including tanks and small arms).

Franco was not a fascist, but used the fascists to win the war and to hold his regime together. He was a extreme-rightist but didn't share Hitler's or Mussolini's vision on politics.

Did you know that his praetorian guard was entirely composed by moors from the spanish colonies in northern Africa? Imagine Hitler with an elite guard of moors

Fernando

Besides,

Do you really think that there wouldn't have been repression and executions if the Republic had won? But yeah, you probably never would of heard of any because they would have controlled the press. Give me a break.

Puna wrote: Haven't changed the search function set-up. But I did conduct the search and you might be referring to one of the following threads:

" Day trips from Toledo - El Escorial/Valley fo the Fallen "

" El Escorial & Valle de los Caidos "

" valley of the fallen "

Saludos, MadridMan

Fernando, where did I say Himmler was good? He's one of the great monsters of the 20th century, indeed of all times. Which is why I said "of all people".

As for the the number of those executed, the conservative Stanley Payne says that after the war was over, courts martial condemned 50,000 to death, of whom about 30,000 were in fact executed. That sounds like a "mass" to me. Gabriel Jackson cites 200,000, Hugh Thomas 75,000 executions.

Paul Peston is a very thorough scholar. Here's what he has to say in his biography of Franco.

"Indeed, the Republican will to resist was kept alive only by the fear born of Franco's much-publicized determination to eradicate liberals, socialists and Communists from Spain. Baron von Stohrer wrote to the Wilhelmstrasse on 19 November 1938: 'the main factors which still separate the belligerent parties are mistrust, fear and hatred'." Franco told James Miller, Vice-president of the United Press, that a negotiated peace was out of the question 'because the criminals and their victims cannot live side-by-side'. Committed to a post-war policy of institutionalized revenge, he rejected the idea of a general amnesty and declared that the Nationalists had a list of two million reds who were to be punished for their 'crimes'.
The political files and documentation captured as each town had fallen to the Nationalists were gathered in Salamanca. Carefully sifted, they provided the basis for an immense card index of members of political parties, trade unions and masonic lodges. The Republican zone was kept on a war footing by terror of Nationalist reprisals." (p316)

"By 31 March 1939, all of Spain was in Nationalist hands. A final bulletin was issued by Franco's headquarters on 1 April 1939. Hand-written by Franco himself, it ran 'Today, with the Red Army captive and disarmed, our victorious troops have achieved their final military objectives. The war is over.' Franco had the gratification of a telegram from the Pope thanking him for the immense joy which Spain's 'Catholic victory' had brought him. It was a victory which had cost well over half a million lives. It was to cost many more." (p322)

"Himmler was taken aback by the scale of the post Civil war repression - prisons were still overflowing with hundreds of thousands of prisoners and the silent executions of anonymous Republicans continued relentlessly. "(392)

Of course there were murders on the Republican side - though these were usually condemned by the Republican government, not sanctioned. But all I'm trying to argue that Franco was effectively another of the great monsters of the 20th century.

Would a Stalin-controlled Spain have been equally represssive. Of course. Which is why socialists and anarchists were against the communists. And were murdered by the communist party. It's not true to say anarchists sided with communists to bring in a Soviet state.

Thanks for the feedback, especially from Fernando and Gazpacho. Bad as he was, I don't feel you can compare Franco to Hitler, Stalin or even Mussolini.
There's an anecdotal story about Franco towards the end of his rule (I forget where I read it). He went on a boat trip in the Med with some of his lackeys and pulled in close to one of the tourist resorts that were becoming popular on the Spanish coast. After observing all the partying going off Franco asked the skipper to take him back to port and said "In the end we lost the war!"