The Hidrological Plan is as much of a law as any infraestructural plan who is aproved. Whenever a new government is elected they have the right to aprove a new plan and stop developing the former plan. Unluckily that's what many of our governments have done in the past decades. And I say unfortunately because I do think many things should be left to us the technicians, since they have nothing to do with politics. However, it is perfectly legal to do it.

My English is not good enough to fully explain my political ideas about this matter.

But I'll try to express some of my opinions (with a dictionary near to me lol):

1. Zapatero is proving to be an unqualified (and I suspect that maybe spiteful) president. He has based his career in demagogics. Just my opinion.

Just an example: he's gonna finish the year with a irresponsible and unacceptable 4% inflation index. His response to that? Making more public expenses, ang giving more money to certain Autonomous Communities (yes, the Estatut is not only about language but about money.. and you know, people is important. More than a flag or a word.. you can't feed your children with flags or words).

2. The Spanish electoral system favors small and nationalistic parties, who can get disproportionate benefits (such as the Catalan Estatut) from their alliance with the national President.

3. Spain is living in two eras. One, the era of the common people, who work and live just as many people around the world.

The other is the politicians era (call it XIX century), discussing about who is "a nation" and who is "a nationality" and (sorry, but the word fits as a glove in this) such STUPID issues.

A country, a XXI century country, has more amd more important matters to work on than "I'm 70% Catalan and 30% Spanish".

4. Unfortunately, some common people is getting infected by those "nation" fool discussions. It helps a lot that many people doesn't really know History, and argue about Roman times and Middle Ages making a lot of mistakes. Here in this thread you have some example, y lo digo con todo el cariño.

"Spain has always been a nation of nations"... I'm sorry but even the historical terminology is misused.

5. There is nothing like 1936. Is just the growing demagogics that seems to want to reopen the phenomenon of the "two Spains".

Both left and right made mistakes in this. But, if you aske me, the left wing of Spanish politics is opening wounds that are hard to close again. They want to sweep off the right wing from the political scene.

The Spanish transition was world-widely considered as a model. Now, the new Goverment insists in making an unnecessary "2nd transition" (they created the word "2nd transition", not me, so their intentions are clear: to re-change the existing democratic model for another).

6. As anyone can see, I'm not a lefty at all. But not a diehard righty. I swear that I say what I see. I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

Zapatero is doing an unnecessary damage, and is not giving the necessary solutions to REAL problems.

We're starting to live in a country of words ("nation", "nationality", "Alice in Wonderland") while a country should focus on facts, on those words that really mean something in people's lives (employment, education, hospitals, inflation, GDP, rates of interest, public services, improvement of the institutions, etc. etc.).

7. I had a Catalan girlfriend (who was and is lovely) and my best friend is a Catalan nationalist. So you can't hardly said that I'm biased against them.

I say this because some people in Cataluña are thinking that of you say that their ideas make no sense, you're an "anti catalan".

Well, I'm not anti-catalan. But that stuff of the "historical rights", the "nation of nations" and so just makes no sense.

For starting, the "nation" concept didn't exist during the Roman Empire or the Middle Ages (oh, please!). If anyone wants, we can discuss this in the Spanish language section. I DO love practicing my weak English but I know I could be easily misunderstood in such delicate matters as politics.

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I'm not trying to upset anyone, I just tried to express some of my opinions without beating around the bush, BUT without looking down anyone.

I hope to have succeed in it, and my apollogies if I didn't.

Saludos a todos.

Emilio J, why do you think that ? what do you propose for a new electoral system? It is curious you say that when the actual system doesn't benefit minorities.

PP has proposed that any party with less than a 5% of national votes should have no representation in the national parlament. This rule can be found in many parlaments worldwide.

And I must say that I fully agree. Nationalist parties may have they representation in regional parlaments, but should not have the weight they have had in present and past governments (PP and PSOE) since they don't believe in our system or our nation.

My two cents..

Fernando

Elecciones 2004

Actually only 1% of the catalan votes are not represented by seats in the national parlament. With your new system , you want to override 44%(CiU/ERC/ICV) of the votes made in Catalunya. Do you really think that 44% of catalans doesn't believe in the actual spanish system, so their opinion must be disregarded?

You also have said that PSOE doesn't respect laws
and spanish constitution. So, also PSOE votes must be nullified,no ?

Giving that situation, I ask you:
- is PP the only party in Spain that understand what is Spain and the only that respects the constitution , so must rule Spain lonely?

My other two cents...

I think that any opinion is valuable, but I also think that nationalists should not have the power to decide which party must govern Spain. They should have their own decission environment which, in this case, should only be the Catalonian Parlament.

You also have said that PSOE doesn't respect laws and spanish constitution. So, also PSOE votes must be nullified,no ?

That is out of context. You are just trying to place me in a extreme position I don't share. My opinion is as valid as yours or any other, and let me remember that there are other democratic systems in much older democracies which are ruled by the system proposed by PP. In USA all the votes of a state are given to the party with more votes in that state, for example.

- is PP the only party in Spain that understand what is Spain and the only that respects the constitution , so must rule Spain lonely?

To the first part of the sentence I must answer clearly yes. PSOE has show a null understanding of what is a nation and a great disrespect and disregard of the spanish constitution.

To the second part, again it is out of context. You are trying to place me in a extreme position I don't share. I believe in democracy and I think that Spain should have two big parties in which they have clear what is Spain and where they want to position our country. I could vote in certain situations a party like the Labourist Party of UK, I would never vote a PSOE radicalized as it is.

Fernando

sdavidr:

Look. Yoy say that actual system doesn't favor minorities. Well...

CiU/ERC/ICV are the coalition that forms the regional governmentof Cataluña, right? They got 44% of Catalan votes, so they formed a regional governemt.

Until this, everything's ok.

National Parliament: a party needs a 51% majority to effectively perform gubernamental actions through Pariament.

(I don't remember the exact percentages but you'll get my point).

If PSOE gets 49% of the Parliament seats, they won't be able to govern without problems, because all the 51% of the remaining seats could vote again and again. So PSOE will need another 2-3% to govern.

They ask ERC (who have a 3% of the seats) to give them support and add their votes to PSOE votes in order to govern.

BUT:

ERC says, "if you want my 3% of votes in order to govern, you have to say 'yes' to my demands".

PSOE, in a desperate will of govern, accepts. So, in fact, de facto, de hecho... you have a party with a 3% of national votes having a HUGE influence on PSOE government's decisions.

You call that "a system that doesn't favor the minorities"? Sorry but I don't get your point.

I have to say this, but you gave a biased link, You gave the barcelona province results. Now look at the national GLOBAL results:

http://www.el-mundo.es/especiales/2004/03/espana/14m/resultados/congreso/globales/

Look at the ERC percentage. That party is having a humongous influence on national politics. They, with 8 seats and an alliance with the PSOE, have more power than the 148 seats of the PP.

Yeah man, it doesn't favors the minorities. 8 seas have more influence than 141.

I don't blame ERC. We all know ERC, they are taking advantage from the situation and taking their part of the loot.

I blame Zapatero. I blame the PSOE. They have 164 seats and, because they want to govern at any cost, they give an unfair power to 8 seats in order to form a 172 majority during main Parliament decissions. Ok, that's legal. That's the system. But that's an unfair system to me.

ERC took 15% of votes in WHOLE Cataluña and a 3% in WHOLE Spain. Now they are the main Zapatero's partners and they sell their 8 seats by a high price. They demand and demand. Zapatero gives and gives.

They didn't go to the polls as an alliance.. they made an alliance AFTER the polls. So you, as a citizen, will never know if you're voting for the PSOE project, or if you're voting for a PSOE+ERC project, or what are you voting for.

Do you think that a non-Catalonian PSOE voter may be happy with the disproportionate power that ERC has achieved by being an sudden (and mercenary) ally of Zapatero?

And you say that the system "doesn't favors the minorities".

Oh, please.

I almost forget this:

Fernando said:

sdavidr said:

sdavidr, that's pure and simple demagogics.

ERC are NOT the 44% of Catalan votes. They are the 15'95%. They are the 2'54% of all Spain's votes... (those where all Spain elections, do you remember?, so all Spain results are what count).

In fact, a party with less of 5% votes not having representation at Parliament makes sense. It makes way much more sense than a party with a 2'54% votes taking an important part on what are some of the Spain's government decissions.

I say it again:

ERC = 2'54 % of the votes.

Carod Rovira = Zapatero partner... with a 2'54% of the votes.

Does it meke sense to you?

This has to be avoided. A two rounds poll, maybe, I don't know. But this system is plain and simply unfair.

When I vote for a party, I'm voting for the project that THAT party presented, I want them to accomplish it if they get a majority. I don't want surprises such a 2'54% party telling the majority party to include stuff from their own 2'54% party project.

I don't think this is a crazy will from mine. I think it makes sense. I want the majority to govern, the TRUE majority, because that's democracy.

It won't be too long until Zap and his party no longer run Spain. He was elected based on his screaming about pulling Spanish troops out of Iraq, so it was a gut reaction that got him in.

There are some parallels to the government that existed in Spain during the Civil War, but not at the beginning. In the beginning it was not influenced nearly as much by the Communists as people often think, even though it became their baby as time went on.

There's an old saying that applies here.

"You made your bed, now lay in it."

So, how do you intend voting next time around? Will Castro be your "buddy" or will common sense win the day? Its up to the Spanish people to make their decision. After all, you just lost your old "buddy" in Germany, Schroeder, who got beaten by a woman whose primary intent is to mend fences with the US that Schroeder tore down.

So, where does that leave Spain, And Zippy?

Its ironic that the same people who are voicing insults about the American choices in government make so many mistakes. As much "advice" as to how "foolish we are" would seem to mean they should have done a better job in electing their own officials.

I certainly hope the people of Spain set a clear course to insure their own future in the next elections. If they don't, and if the trend towards appeasement that Zippy has already instituted when he dealt with Muslim terrorists, and obviously has been approved by the people, tear the country apart.

Wolf

Fernando, this is what PP thinks about that:

"One of the greatest successes of the great constitutional pact of 1978 was the territorial articulation of the political power, through an agreement that was the synthesis in the different ways of seeing and understanding Spain"

Decálogo PP

So I'm very interested in seeing the proposed reform by PP ( I haven't been capable to find it). I think that your idea of this new electoral system is not shared actually by any party in our national parlament.

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EmilioJ, Do you know that the new catalan statute was a electoral promise of Zapatero? You know that the proposed statute has been aproved by PSC, CiU, ERC and ICV ? Beside of the statute ( because you think the catalan statute is only a demand of ERC)
what other demands of ERC have been accomplished and approved by PSOE ?