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#82933 - 04/30/05 05:47 AM Re: EU Constitution
Bricamb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/01/01
Posts: 181
Loc: Cambridge UK
Most of the new immigrants coming into Britain at least are from the new EU members states like Poland, Hungary etc. These new countries (there are ten of them I think) together with Romania and Bulgaria who will hopefully be joining in 2007 mean that the EU population has increased substantially so hopefully that will result in economic benefit, more taxes, access to new markets etc. Also Turkey could be joining within the next 10 years together with Croatia, Serbia. What we have to remember is that the vast majority of muslim people in Europe are law abiding people and they are sometimes driven to despair by the antics of a few young,radical muslim men. And I'm not talking about terrorists here who are another thing alltogether. The general election is happening here on the 5th of May and there was a news report of young muslim men somewhere in England encouraging people on the street not to vote as voting is 'unislamic.' The muslim elders in that town were very angry about what these young men were doing. But they could see that in the end these guys were just rebelling against the system...in the same way many young people do. Wait ten years and these same guys will probably be married with kids and living in Stoke Newington! I'm not saying that muslim terrorism is not a threat - it is but we musn't tar all people with the same brush.

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#82934 - 04/30/05 07:02 AM Re: EU Constitution
filbert Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 399
Loc: London
Here in the Uk there used to be the same arguments about Irish catholics, many of whom came to seek work (and I believe the same is still muttered in Northern Ireland by extremist Unionists). They're fanatics, they're breeding far faster than we are, they're nearly all terrorists...etc etc etc. All alarmist scare-stories.
I am concerned about terrorists - whether they be Islamists from Algiers, Continuity IRA from Derry, Anti-abortionist extremists from Alhabama or right-wing freedom bombers from Oklahoma. Tarring whole communities with the same brush is however self-defeating.
PS In the Uk I meet the worst behaviour on a daily basis (aggressive actions, swearing, fighting, binge-drinking, hooliganism etc) and 99.9% of the time it's white English born and bred young men (and occasionally girls too). I expect civilised and polite behaviour only from continental and/or asian young people now. Luckily I am sometimes proven wrong (ie a white youth shows considerate or polite actions).
_________________________
An English Bookseller in Madrid

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#82935 - 04/30/05 07:36 AM Re: EU Constitution
Pia Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: Finland
I think it's really scary how afraid some of you people are of anything that's not exactly what you're used to.

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#82936 - 04/30/05 08:58 AM Re: EU Constitution
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
In Response to Atahualpa's Avenging Ghost vision of a future Europe:
I respectfully disagree!

What becomes of Europe, or America for that matter, will largely depend on Economics.

A see a different scenario, than you Ghost. Bruce Walker wrote an interesting article in
Mensnewsdaily http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/w/walker/2005/walker031505.htm titled: Our Futre Allies, which paints a more realistic and positive scenario.
Quote:
What if Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon and then Iran, Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia become free, tolerant, pluralistic democracies? What if they become market-driven open economies? Is there any reason why and Iranian or an Iraqi or an Egyptian cannot be as productive as a Frenchmen or a German or a Russian? No, not really at all.

Once Chosen (Korea) and Formosa (Taiwan) were considered economic and colonial backwaters of a Japanese empire, snatched from a decaying Chinese empire. Now, the southern half of Korea and the island state of Taiwan are economic powerhouses. Is there any reason why the Iraqi or Afghan people cannot be as productive as the Taiwanese or Korean?

Is there any reason to doubt that a liberated Persian culture might not produce an explosion of wealth, as well as art and ideas, would make Iran as productive per capita as Italy? European chauvinism says “Never!” but this betrays the practical enslavement of these people under the rule of Russian and British (in Iran) and under non-Arabic Turks, under indifferent colonial rulers, and under a series of despots after “liberation” from the Turks.

In fact, there is every reason to believe that Egyptians, Iranians, Iraqi, Afghans and other peoples who have lived for generations in quiet slavery might find true liberation liberating. If they did, then what happened in 20 years in Japan, Korea and Taiwan might happen in only 10 years in North Africa and West Asia.

Why? Several reasons. First, the information explosion means that people can catch up much more quickly than in the days of vacuum tubes - satellites and the internet make rapid change not only in knowledge but in outlook and philosophy easy. Second, we - who would facilitate this revolution - have learned lessons in Korea and Taiwan. A strong investment of political capital now pays off dividends at a rapidly compounding rate. Third, these serfs have much to prove.

What will bring real peace to the Middle East? How about an Egypt which has an economy stronger than that of France and a standard of living at least equal to that of Israel? How about an Iran whose affluence and grace pulls the former soviet socialist republics of Central Asia into an orbit of peace? How about an Iraq which people seek to live in because of its vitality and energy?

Once the misdirected envy which Arabs and Moslems feel toward the post-Holocaust enclave of Israel is forgotten in happy lands of hope and of accomplishment, then there will be no real reason for Moslem to hate Jew or Christian to fear Moslem. All true and pious Moslems, Jews and Christians are united, as President Bush reminds us, by much more than divides us.

There is as much to fear from Pagan Europe, which produced a Pagan Nazi Germany and a militantly atheist Soviet Union, as from a religiously serious Middle East which is free and which is trying to persuade the rest of the world, as America does, by positive example.

So do not be too surprised to find ten years from now that the economic and intellectual vitality of the planet is in not in Berlin, but in Bagdad, not in Sweden, but in Syria, not in Amsterdam, but in Amman. This will work, of course, only if Christians and Jews are full, welcome and safe citizens of former secular tyrannies and pseudo-Islamic theocracies, like the Council of Guardians in Iran.

We in the West easily and properly recognize those portions of Levantine brilliance to which we can trace our beliefs - Israel, Lebanon, Greece - but those lands which once produced the wonders of the world may produce them again, in unexpected places and from peoples who may well be our dearest and truest allies.

Once the middle east is as economically viable as Europe and America, much of the discontent that the Atta's of this world feel will be moot.

What will happen to Europe? In my world view they will continue as they have done in the past. But their societies will be more pluralistic. They will be welcoming and competing with America for the bright and productive Muslim young immigrants!
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#82937 - 04/30/05 06:18 PM Re: EU Constitution
Lonoma Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/03
Posts: 72
Loc: Sevilla, Spain.
I hope France can save Europe at the next polls voting non to European Constitution.
I dislike this constitution first because it does not recognice the christian roots of Europe (i’m more aware of being and behave catholic since 9-11 and 3-11). Second because is the Constitution of France and Germany. I prefer Niza treaty.

Related to health, I like the Spanish Social Security system, although governments, as a reason for having more votes, are accustoming to people to get most things free. Free medicines, bus tickets,... for retired people whatever the incomings these people have, for instance. And Spaniards are voting the party who gives them more things free, either school books, subsidies for building a house, for buying a computer or for a vacation in Mallorca or Torrevieja!!.

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#82938 - 05/03/05 07:25 AM Re: EU Constitution
JasMadrid Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 139
Loc: Madrid
I have a question for you Ghost.... You say, and you are right, that there is a severe population decline in many european countries, including Spain, and you compare it to the huge birth rate of the muslim population. I am one of those who believe the muslim population will slowly become european citizens, proud of their culture, but proud europeans too. It will be slow, with a lot of problems (as it has happened in the netherlands or France) but at the end everything will be fine.

How about the hispanic population in the US? I have read many of them don't even speak english and they have a huge growth rate compared to the rest of the US population.... If what you say about muslims in Europe is right, will California and Florida be taken over by them in a few decades?? Will they became independent countries controlled by hispanics???? I myself don't think so.

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#82939 - 05/03/05 02:51 PM Re: EU Constitution
ColinK Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/04
Posts: 71
Loc: Atlantic Highlands, NJ- USA
Jasmadrid- I think the big difference is that many of the workers who come here illegally from Mexico only do so for 10 or 15 years and then head back to Mexico. Quite often their wives and kids don't even come with them. They just come here to work, and they do work hard. Then head home to Mexico with a nice little nest egg to 'retire' on.
But there is also a large population that settles here, and do not speak much English, if any. Not sure what the solution is yet, but it's certainly not declaring all illegal aliens legal, as some politicians want to do.

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#82940 - 05/03/05 09:52 PM Re: EU Constitution
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
JasMadrid, I can tell you about the Cubans that settled in Miami and South Florida in the 1960's, and later migrations.
Your question:
Quote:
How about the hispanic population in the US?
Many of them don't speak English... when the first wave came 1960-1962, they did not speak English and it is true that many of the elders failed to learn english, even thought many tried. However, their children did, I am an example of this generation, we assimilated very well, and can and do speak English like native-speakers. Our children, speak English, but speak spanish with an English accent!

Quote:
they have a huge growth rate compared to the rest of the US population.... If what you say about muslims in Europe is right, will California and Florida be taken over by them in a few decades??
I cannot speak about California, but here in Florida the third generation Cubans assimilated to the American culture, and while it is true that we have more children on the average. It is expected that those of Hispanic descent will be the largest population by 2030 in Florida.
What does this mean?

It means that genetically and historically our roots are from spanish-speaking lands, our culture is flavored by these lands including Spain, in the case of Cuba, and the restaurants will have our food. But, in every other way, socially, governmentally, legally, the "hispanics" are as American as those of other European extraction that settled here decades before. We have assimilated to the dominant culture while maintianing roots in our past.

What is the dominant culture in the U.S.? A wonderful mixture of every land where people sought FREEDOM from some type of coercion, be it political or economical.

You add:
Quote:
Will they became independent countries controlled by hispanics???? I myself don't think so.
I agree; we have not and we will not. But, with the number of Hispanics increasing, you will see the marketplace accommodating our culture as it did the culture of the Irish-Americans, the Polish-americans, etc.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#82941 - 05/04/05 10:41 AM Re: EU Constitution
JasMadrid Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 139
Loc: Madrid
Booklady, I can't agree more with you, and that was actually my point. You really think hispanic are being and will be assimilated to american culture, and that's what I believe too, then, why do you guys think it is going to be so difficult for us in Europe??? Most inmigrants, as those who go to the US, what they really want is make some money, work hard, and come back to their countries. Those who stay, try to adjust to our culture, trying to preserve as much as their own as they can. Adjusting is not easy, but if it is possible in the US, it is possible here.

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#82942 - 05/04/05 10:55 AM Re: EU Constitution
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
I believe the inherent problem from having Muslims becoming more influential in a nation is that there's always that element that will push for creation of an "Islamic nation." They don't necessarily have to be the majority, since they'll use whatever means at their disposal to make it happen.

That's the difference between the influx of Cubans, and people from various nations around the world, and the Muslims.

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