Fernando I agree with you that there is no clear cut right or wrong here. But don't think that people are left to die here in the US, they aren't. Whether people have medical insurance or not, they cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Otherwise you're right, it's just a matter of where you're raised pretty much, that determines which system you're more comfortable in. All of my friends in Europe prefer the system over there. And all my friends here certainly prefer the way things are done here. Nothing wrong with that.
I see the pros and cons of both sides.

Fernando: If I take a gun and rob someone at gun point, that is called armed robbery in the US, and is considered a selfish act. If the government puts a gun in someones face and take their money it is called tax collection, for the good of public welfare

Then people around the world wonder why we Americans are an impossible group to get along with.

Read the following article titled Europe v. America, published online at: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242

Europe vs. America
Germany edges out Arkansas in per capita GDP.
Sunday, June 20, 2004 12:01 a.m.

The growing split between the U.S. and Europe has been much in the news, mostly on foreign policy. But less well understood is the gap in economic growth and standards of living. Now comes a European report that puts the American advantage in surprisingly stark relief.

The study, "The EU vs. USA," was done by a pair of economists--Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag--for the Swedish think tank Timbro. It found that if Europe were part of the U.S., only tiny Luxembourg could rival the richest of the 50 American states in gross domestic product per capita. Most European countries would rank below the U.S. average, as the chart below shows.

The authors admit that man doesn't live by GDP alone, and that this measure misses output in the "black" economy, which is significant in Europe's high-tax states. GDP also overlooks "the value of leisure or a good environment" or the way prosperity is spread across a society.

But a rising tide still lifts all boats, and U.S. GDP per capita was a whopping 32% higher than the EU average in 2000, and the gap hasn't closed since. It is so wide that if the U.S. economy had frozen in place at 2000 levels while Europe grew, the Continent would still require years to catch up. Ireland, which has lower tax burdens and fewer regulations than the rest of the EU, would be the first but only by 2005. Switzerland, not a member of the EU, and Britain would get there by 2010. But Germany and Spain would need until 2015, while Italy, Sweden and Portugal would have to wait until 2022.

Higher GDP per capita allows the average American to spend about $9,700 more on consumption every year than the average European. So Yanks have by far more cars, TVs, computers and other modern goods. "Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near," the Swedish study says.

But what about equality? Well, the percentage of Americans living below the poverty line has dropped to 12% from 22% since 1959. In 1999, 25% of American households were considered "low income," meaning they had an annual income of less than $25,000. If Sweden--the very model of a modern welfare state--were judged by the same standard, about 40% of its households would be considered low-income.

In other words poverty is relative, and in the U.S. a large 45.9% of the "poor" own their homes, 72.8% have a car and almost 77% have air conditioning, which remains a luxury in most of Western Europe. The average living space for poor American households is 1,200 square feet. In Europe, the average space for all households, not just the poor, is 1,000 square feet.

So what is Europe's problem? "The expansion of the public sector into overripe welfare states in large parts of Europe is and remains the best guess as to why our continent cannot measure up to our neighbor in the west," the authors write. In 1999, average EU tax revenues were more than 40% of GDP, and in some countries above 50%, compared with less than 30% for most of the U.S.

We don't report this with any nationalist glee. The world needs a prosperous, growing Europe, and its relative economic decline is one reason for growing EU-American tension. A poorer Europe lacks the wealth to invest in defense, a fact that in turn affects the willingness of Europeans to join America in confronting global security threats. But at least all of this is a warning to U.S. politicians who want this country to go down the same welfare-state road to decline.

Fernando,

We are two people worlds apart. To me, opportunity is the ability to create wealth, not to stand in a bread line and wait for someone to dole out your daily meal. , hospitalization, schooling, etc. Heck, why isn't housing and a car a right?

The problem is that it's hard to make a living with a fat, dumb, business partner with a hand in you pocket(the government) to ensure that wealth is distributed equitably. This is not unique to Europe, we have the same moochers over here.

But, you are wrong all the same. It isn't just a matter of preference. Because existence exist, your economic system is in greater peril than ours, and because everyone over there thinks its right to rob from their creators of wealth, your potential is less. But like I said before, reality proves me too right for my own liking even. I really wish I was wrong.

Fernando: I have to agree with Colin and Gazpacho, we will never agree on these issues. The peoples of Europe, Asia, Africa and South America have great difficulty understanding our economic mind set. Australia does not have that much trouble with our mindset, they think a lot like we do. The vast majority of Americans do not grasp the "collectivism mindset." We are individuals, that is not to say that we let our people starve in the street. We don't let them lay in the street sick or injured and refuse them medical care because they do not have money. It is no secret that some of our school districts leave a lot to be desired. There are methods for anyone with a desire and the will to get it,to obtain a university level education. Our country was founded by the individual that had the mindset of "I'll make by myself or die trying" and that mentality remains today, especially in the Western US. Some of those individualist may have been your ancestors.

We as Americans are not a perfect people and we do not have a perfect government. We may not agree with our friends and allies around the world and Europe. The one thing that you can count on is this, should the day ever come, and we all pray that it never will come, that should an allie of the USA ever need help, that help is as close as a phone call from Moncloa to the White House. Within 24 hours those Navy ships, and Air Force planes, loaded with troops and equipment will be headed your way.

I really don't have anything else to add to this forum. Some reading this wish that I had not said what has been said. We will be communicating on other forums with an exchange of ideas on other issue. I will be returning to Spain next year and maybe we can enjoy some vino and fryed mushrooms together. I wish you and all Europeans nothing but the best, h-ll I wish nothing but the best for the French. I hope your EU and it's constitution works out for the best and you can all live in peace and economic prosperity.

To quote USMC Staff Sgt Jimmy Lopez from Globe, Arizona, "viva la roja, blanco y azul." Symbol of freedom, where ever it flies.

Gazpacho and desert dweller, I think we've all said that we understand how you see things and nobody's tried to convince you to start supporting our system; we've just been trying to make you understand how we think. I am, really, very aware of that my country's economy will never be as efficient as yours but I still think that's a price I want to pay for the security I and the people around me have. I have never seen anyone homeless in Finland and yeah, some alcoholic has asked me for a euro sometimes but I've never seen a person begging for money on the street. I think this also contributes to that we don't have any slum areas and it's very safe everywhere, we're topping the OECD country comparisons for education and we're rated the least corrupt country. As I said I don't think the system is perfect and I know the billgateses of Finland have an easier time moving somewhere else but hey, you can become rich here too (the Swedish Ikea guy is the second richest in the world right?) and after what I've gotten I am happy to pay something back too.
But again, I understand you don't think the same way and I'm not asking you to, I'm just asking you to try to understand our view and stop preaching in a big brother kind of way like we wouldn't understand what we're "giving up". You probably think it's as amusing as I find your dramatic stories about the red-white-blue flag that comes and makes everything right and kick's bad guys' asses liberating the world but let's just understand each other and try to cooperate, and maybe we'll get something good done.

Pia, that was just what I was trying to say. I guess my poor english didn't let me express myself properly. I don't think our system is better than theirs. I do know our system affect our economic growth, but yet I wanna pay that price, as you said. One of my american friends had a very severe heart problem when she was just 26. She had a good and well paid job (she's got an MBA in a well known university) but she had a pretty lousy health insurance which didn't cover the surgery and hospital expenses. She paid the 35,000$ by making a loan on her house, and she almost lost it... Now she pays for a great insurance and she won't have that problem any more... But how about those, not poor enough to be covered by the system, but not rich enough to pay for their insurance??

American system works great for those with good education and willing to work hard. That has a lot of advantages. But it does not work so well for those who, even willing to work, didn't have the chance to get a good job. In the end we will probably have to lose many of our privileges, you guys are right, but in the meantime I already made my choice.

Well, now that each of us has sorted out our lifestyle choice,and are individually pleased, with your permission, I would like to pursue, with those that are interested the question of the EU constitution, as the thread indicates. This is history in the making

A recent article in Bloomberg.com [http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=aZWa9KoPowR8&refer=germany] cites that part of the problem that French workers have with the constitution is fear of job loss if the constitution passes:

In further reading the purpose of the constitution is to streamline decision making:
But what really has the French people upset according to this article is the EU plan to deregulate the markert for services:

As Fernando stated earlier the Treaty of Nice will allow the EU to continue to function until 2009; but will the EU be able to accomplish all it set out to do without a constitution?

Desert Dweller wrote: Here in Canada, like the EU...we have free medical care, and we have subsidized college/university...and no business owner pays 60-75 % tax here...

Acutally...the taxes that a Canadian Employer pays (which includes a payment to the provincial health care system) is less then what most American employers pay when taxes and the private insurance fee for their employee's coverage are combined ...

Two things in one:

Agente Municipal - What strikes me as a little odd is why so many Canadians who can afford it, have private insurance, so they can get what they deem "better medical attention" in the US instead of waiting for assistance through the socialized program. The same situation exists in Spain, where those who can afford it, opt to carry private insurance so they can get "the best help available" for a problem. Therein lies the problem with socialized medicine. The best facilities, doctors, and equipment, are available in the private sector, not through the socialized programs.

My comment wasn't made to cause conflict, just pointing out a fact.

Changing subject - EU Constitution

I have no quarrel with EU having a constitution. The UN has one as well. Of course we know how well the UN abides by it's own rulings, don't we?

My problem is that there are members of EU who are using the theory behind the group's existence as a "weapon" against the US. To say that France and Germany aren't would be wrong.

As far as the collectivization that the constitution seems to want to include, there are very few countries that would abide by such restrictions, and rightfully so. Why would they destroy their own potential for someone else to have an "equal share of the pie?" It's not logical.

In the end, any Constitution that's written will be watered down with no teeth in it, and it will only consist of teeth where the Germans and French want the teeth to exist.

As far as EU ever catching the US in spendable income, etc, you can enact all the programs you want, but the only thing that makes people achieve higher levels is through their ability to gain through personal enterprise, and work. You can't socialize these things into existence.

On education. One poster said it best. We spend more money on inner-city education than anywhere else in the US. Our system may not be perfect, but an education is available to everyone through our public schools. The same holds true beyond HS, where there are colleges that offer curriculums at not only an affordable price, but free to those who need assistance. If an American does not get a college education, it's usually because they chose not to, not because it's only available to those with money. If there's enough desire in anyone, in the US, they can get that education.

We may not be perfect in how we handle things in the US, but in all honesty, I'll take our system in a heartbeat over collectivized living. It rewards us for hard work.

Wolf