Gazpacho, you have readen my posts and you know that I have a great respect for the US and most of its values, but when I hear certain things and lines of argueing I make myself some questions:

Every european country have free quality education.

Even poors should have the right to have the basic health care. That is something guaranteed in european countries.

Life: But the USA is one of the unique first-world countries with death penalty.

Liberty: But there are hundreds of presumed terrorists prived of liberty and all rights (even the right to have a lawyer).

Pursuit of happiness: How can someone pursuit happiness if he doesn't have a proper education and a basic health care?

I believe in equality of opportunities. Everyone should have the opportunity to pursuit happiness.

Of course there is a little bit of demagoguery when people asks "why the USA don't pursuit all tyrants?" as there is in the answer "we go one at a time". We all know that the US interventions are not only intended to free people from their tyrants. Anyway, it is true that european countries have shamingly tolerated crimes like the ones committed by serbs against bosnians in Svrenica.

The thing is that there are things our countries do that can't be justified. We live in democratic countries which should make a special effort to be very scrupulous when trying to spread their values over the world. For example, tortures in Iraq by US soldiers are out of place, as they were out of place in Bosnia by european soldiers.

Fernando

Pia, and others, please don't read desert dweller's and gazpacho's posts and then conclude that you understand how we Americans think. Millions of us are horrified that we might be put in the same category as these two. And it's quite ironic that desert dweller uses Country Joe and the Fish's song to illustrate his point of view. That song is vehemently anti-war, (the Vietnam war), and anti-"establishment." Quotes: gimme an F....gimme a U.....gimme a C....gimme a K.....What's that spell F--K What's that spell F--K....and "Come on fathers, don't hestitate, send your sons off before it's too late, be the first ones on your block to have your boy come home in a box....and it's one two three, what are we fighting for? Don't ask me I don't give a damn...." "open up the pearly gates.... there ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee, we're all gonna die!" Desert dweller didn't understand it?!

And, Pia, we all know why Iraq....

Yes, Bricamb, it's sad and frightening that there is so much anti-European sentiment in the U.S. And anti-U.S. sentiment in Europe. Ultimately, we need each other. The EU and the United Nations are not "irrelevent" as Atilla the Rum has said.

Fernando, you are right on with your last post.

The truth is, we are all one, as MLK used to say. We have a lot to learn from and give to each other.

Whether or not the EU nations ratify the constitution is not so important. The important thing is that nations who have been torn apart by wars for centuries are now successfully working together to prevent them.

Bricamb, let me attempt to answer your observations to me. I really wish that we could all be having this conversation face to face, preferably at the Plaza Major in Madrid, because many misconceptions and misinterpretations can occur in communicating in this manner, but here goes:

I think that we can agree that aid was needed in the aftermath of W.W. II. Yes, the plan did stave off starvation for most of Europe. At least for the first five or so years, when factories had to be rebuild; the infrastructure such as water, electricity needed to be rebuild. The drought of 1947 destroyed what harvests Britain and France were able to muster.

Why the U.S.?

The U.S. was the only country that was not significantly harmed by the war.

Were there other alternatives to U.S. aid at the time?

Initially named the Economic Recovery Program (ERP) it was known as the Marshall plan after that speech in Harvard.

These men were correct, thanks to the Marshall Plan Europe was given the grants and loans (17 billion dollars)available to rebuild their infrastructure, and it was not taken out of Germany’s hide. Today Germany is one of Europe’s top economy, would it have been if the Morgenthau plan was followed? No way.

Bricamb you add:

I would agree that the reasons were partially altruistic and partially to the self-interest to both the U.S. and Europe, but not for the reasons you give.

At the time that the Marshall plan was drafted 1947 the concern was more political than economical.

The U.S. just got out of a huge depression, the war economy kick started our economy, however, at this time our factories were old and not quite ready to reach out to Europe, that did not happen until about 15-20 years later.

If you want to accuse the U.S. of self-interest, it would have to be to help Europe rebuild itself so that the Soviets would not take over more of Europe, so that the U.S, would not have to fight another war in Europe.

Here’s Wikipedia’s description of one of the U.S.’s concern:

The effects of the Marshall Plan?

Call it what you like altruism or self-interest, the end result speaks for itself. Most Americans are happy that this was the wisest course of action, and if by helping Europe financially to recreate itself into vibrant, strong and growing econmies that buy our goods, we are most happy about that too!

The Wikipedia article was most informative and had a balanced view of this topic.

Bricamb you also add:
Bricamb, if there is a growing anymosity it is not widespread; Europe is still America's number one travel destination, and many Americans hold their European roots dear.

However, there is a recent concern among many travellers of their treatment while visiting some European countries, which is readilly dispelled in their visit. We are just people like everyone else.

I would say that the growing anymosity is more towards the ineffectiveness of the United Nations, than any specific European country. But, as Fernando points out, that is a different topic.

Gazpacho, I think in my country everybody has the exact same possibilities regarding education. Universities are free and you get paid a specified amount of money by the government each month in order to be able to pay for your living costs. Additionally, you can borrow money if you feel you need more. We get to eat a subsidized, healthy lunch at campus every day and have free health care and for university students even almost free dental care.

As Fernando said, which I totally agree with, we see this as giving people equal opportunities. I understand it can't happen with your constitution.

And aidance don't worry, I don't put people in categories according to nationality

Fernando, Pia,

Wishing you both the best for a successful E.U.

I guess it's never going to occur to anyone in Europe, much less many in the U.S. for that matter, that for everyone benefiting from a government give away program, someone is being denied the rewards of his labor. I will always sympathize with the person who works hard only to have his efforts stolen from him by his own government and never with the people (almost used another word) living off of him. Ah well, no use arguing, reality proves me right. You're already seeing the effect in your own country that comes with killing the geese that lay the golden eggs.

Peace, I'm done.

Aidance: That song very well sums up American international policy. "come on Wall Street don't be slow our man has sworn a for sure go, plenty of money to be made suppling the Army with the tools of the trade." What he is talking about is the use of war to pump up a weak economy. If you listen to that song he hits on almost ever part of foreign and economic policy. The verse you quoted was to wake up the over zealous patriots, that blindly accept some of the b.s. our great elected officals put out.

If you truly knew the Desert Dweller, you would know how he hates war, but he will not stand by while the US or one of it's allies are crapped on. There are times when war has to be used. When your sitting at a negotiation table, your opponant needs to understand that you can and will use war as a last resort if need be.

Pia and Fernando: Explain something to me. If I own a business or via my labors, 60 or 75 percent of my earnings are taken in taxes and given to someone else so that they can go to college, have a free meal at school. Then get the same medical care that I get. The taxes are taken from me with the might and power of government, IE at gun point. The fruits of my labor are being taken from me for the enrichment of some else. HOW, is that equal opportunity? Draw me a picture, and explain to me how that is equal opportunity. I believe that a book was written on this issue in the late 1800s. The author called it "the redistribution of wealth," his name was Karl Marx.

I wish everyone in Europe all the best with the EU, and hope you do have lasting peace and prosper. I can tell you that an unjust tax system only accomplishes two things, it discourages production, and encourages corruption.

Desert Dweller, I've heard many of my american friends point the same things at me. That's one of the reasons that made me realize Americans and Europeans are much more different than I thought at first.

American system has a lot of good things. It does encourage production. It does encourage self-improvement. It does encourage hard working. All of that makes american economy usually a very active and fast growing one. European system, as you wrote, may discourage production. The benefits of my work, as you said, pay someone else's healthcare. I do understand that for an american that is something impossible to accept. For us it isn't.

If you are american and have little money, you will live in a poor neighbourhood. Your district's high school gets little money, since it is paid with resident taxes (which are poor). As a result, your education is much worse than the one a rich guy gets. Even if you are a pretty good student it will be hard to get scholarships since the good universities will believe your high school didn't give you the best education you can get. It will be difficult for you to be a college graduate, and probably you will make little more money than your parents. Of course there is people who can get out of that wheel, but it is not easy.

In Europe, the school system pays the same for every single high school. Being a poor student you can have the same education (good or bad) than a rich guy going to a public high school. Universities are almost free, so you don't even need a scholarship, and admission depends on your academic achievements. The same applys to health care.

Our system is far to being perfect. Actually, many times is completely unfair.... But for most of us europeans, those who vote right or left, our taxes pay for other's health care, education... but it also pay for ours if things are not right. What you guys see us unaceptable we find it the thing to be.

I don't expect to convice you. I've never been able to convince my american friends, just as they have never been able to convice me. That's why I say we, europeans and americans, are really different. But, we can be friends, actually they are some of my best friends.

Jas,

Would it really surprise you to know that more money is spent on education in poorer neighborhoods in the U.S. than more affluent neighborhoods. This is so because much federal money, on top of residential taxes go into the school system.

This is the type of corruption that Desert Dweller writes about. The Board of Education is so corrupt in the inner cities that they buy each other "official" new cars so they can make it to their meetings, and to heck with inner city youth. Go figure?

This is a thing about a country's culture, not being wrong or right.

I'm making my college lecture on a topic related to culture. The most important writer on this is Hofstede, who discovered time ago some variables with which a culture could be measured.

One of these variables is the tendency towards individualism or collectivism. While european cultures (probably saving nordic cultures) value collectivism, US culture values individual achievements, probably as a heritage of a country founded by pioneers in the colonies.

Also, the USA didn't have direct contact with socialism/comunism during the Industrial Revolution and the Cold War.

It is ok if you prefer to have as much of your profits not being kept by the state to cover the basic needs of everyone. One of the things I admire from the US is the culture of self achievement and motivation to improve your own situation.

But it is also ok if we prefer to have some of our profits (35% of businessess profits and 30% in personal profits more or less in Spain) be used by the state to provide us with a coverage for our basic needs (basic health care, education, unemployment insurance, disablity insurance, public transports, a salary for life beyond 65 years-old,...).

Equality of opportunities means that even if you are born in the poorest estate of the poorest village you may be able, via public education, to achieve a good economic and social position in our society. Also, I think that leaving someone die because he/she doesn't have the money to pay a health insurance is inmoral.

It is a cultural matter as you may see. The thing is that most european countries agree more or less with this point of view on how to deal with social problems.

Fernando