Yup Wolf,

I've been waiting for someone to bring that word up, but that's exactly what it is, plain and simple. We've just had it so good for so long that we've made lots of enemies. Thier government, their media, hell....our government our media, just don't have the guts to explain to the rest of the world why our system just works.

To me it's an utter shame that people don't even try to play ball on our field. They shackle themselves with the "very humane" socialism. I suppose this doesn't affect me, but I cringe at the misery around the world brought about by such stinkin' thinkin'.

Ignacio,

You speak of Spain as if they really cared about the environment. I don't agree. What nation in the world is draining their entire water table to host farms for the rich in areas that aren't easily watered? You know the answer is Spain.

Within a few short years you won't even have water from your ground fit to drink south of Madrid, and you talk about how we're so terrible. What kind of a legacy are you leaving for your own grandchildren in the name of "enrichment of personal wealth?"

It's going to be interesting when you have to have desalination plants running full tilt to keep up with the needs of Madrid, and other cities, while those small land owners who live in the countryside will only have water from large drums that are delivered. Now this is really "being in tune" with nature.

Then there's the issue of raw sewage being dumped into the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean by Spanish cities... A problem don't you think?

How about the fact that your deforestation of entires sections of Spain are almost complete, and those who would do the cutting are looking northward towards the Basque region where they thought it wasn't worth while cutting just twenty years ago. When you're done, you'll have another Ireland, which ended up devoid of trees. Meanwhile, it's all for the good of the country, but actually the money goes into the pockets of... you guessed it... the wealthy. What's being done there is no less in a proportionate scale as the destruction of the rain forests of South America. By the way, how are the rain forests addressed in Kyoto... Doh! It doesn't seem nearly as important as Canada and the US having to quit cutting their own trees, even though we replace them.

The fact is, the Kyoto accord is a lopsided political piece of paper that's whole intent is to make the US less of a world player in world markets by forcing restrictions on us that nobody else will abide by because they don't have to. In other words, they're trying to "level the playing field" by tying anchors around our feet and saying we're going to have a foot race.

Forget it! When people start to realize that everyone has to play by the same rules, we can talk business. Until then, go it alone, because we have no reason to play your game.

Wolf

Oh boy, Wolf,

Your confusing Ignacio with the facts. This may lead him to come to some truths about who is really causing all the troubles on this earth. I don't know if he can handle such an epiphany.

I suspect Ignacio is a watermelon. And that's what the "environmental movement" is all about.

Bad, evil, industrial societies that provide a higher standard of living for it's people. Poor third world, dictatorial forms of government that have their growth stifled by the evil U.S. It makes me chuckle. Ignacio, you call Aznar a brown-noser for the U.S. I'd worry about becoming a brown-noser to the media, I'd say liberal media, but that would be redundant.

Gazpacho,

I haven't even touched on how they're turning half of Spain into a desert. I also haven't touched on their lack of good agricultural management, and usage of chemicals outlawed in the US is seeping into their water table, and will make their water unsafe to drink within a decade. I haven't touched on their off-shore oil projects which are one of the worst managed, and pollutants by individual case in the world. I haven't touched on the fact that the erosion in rivers from the deforestation is one of the major pollutants in the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean. I haven't touched on the fact that their mining operations are sub-standard polluting operations and they don't intend doing squat about it, except talk about it.

I don't enjoy bringing these issues up, but since we're the "world's ogre," we may as well start pointing out how clean the hands are of those who accuse of us being such a problem.

I think it's time for everyone to start cleaning up their act. Amazingly, look how little Kyoto covers that's a problem in Spain? Truly amazing, isn't it?

You'd almost get the idea that a lot of nations want to point fingers but do nothing at home.

Wolf

No Wolf,

The whole environmental movement, such as that proposed by the U.N., is nothing but socialists attacking our way of life, clear and simple. The fact that other countries propose, and want to impose it on us is one thing, the fact that there are so many American dupes is what grates on me.

Hey guys. But for other brief time, this is he first time I get to th board after my vacations, ther could be said a lot about environment. We are a dry country, and we could save much more water if necessary through closing intensive-watered golf courses that mainly foreigners use in the south, and giving up subventioning price of waters for southern farmers.

I can't see we are recently losing woods. I think now every cut three is replaced, and even the old trick of burning one to build afterwards because it's no longer protected because it's not a wood is over or is about to be (the govt. won't allow).

But this is peanuts when we are speaking of mass contamination and the ozone hole that could make this whole world inhabitable through cancers because of radiation and drastical changes in climate, have you seen the film "The day afer tomorrow"? That couldn't happen in some weeks but it could in decades.

And the worst is that the consequences of deeloped countries, specially USA, will be paid first but countries that do not cause them, unlike spain environmental problems (that we'd suffer), but the USA will not pay a dime or they would act otherwise. Besides, what sum of money will compensate a Patagonian farmer or an african peasant of his death beacause of cancer caused by sun without protctive Ozone?