Desert Dweller
Who knows about the future? Sure it is disappointing to see the old, mean, little struggles for a bit more of power inside this old, mean, little continent. But think of one thing, no matter how stupid and greedy our leaders are, they know for sure that the European Union has improved the economy of us all. Borders for trade and workers will never be arisen again, I would bet for that, and that is the key thing in the EU union. All the rest, the Constitution and all that stuff, is just empty speeches for bureaucrats.
Funny that you make that bet about the future of the EU. On this shore, I heard more than once that the US is over, this time, and that the strenth of the euro over the dollar is just the first sign of disaster for an economy which has relied on deficit and loans for too long. Too many credit cards, too expensive wars, too much ENRON.
I am not any expert on economy, so I would not be able to stand these ideas. In any case, if I have to make a bet for the next twenty years, it would be China. As simple as that.

Cristobo,

The American economy may be facing rocky times, but rest assured, when the smoke and the dust settles, our ability to be free thinking capitalists always seems to right our ship, and get us back up to speed, unlike the infighting that is already heavily taking it's toll on EU despite the rhetoric that things are "going great."

The fact is, if the US economy is in the toilet, so is most of the world's, and you'd have to point out when the last time the stock market in other countries outside the US has actually driven the economy here and abroad. The majority of the stock exchanges hinge on the US market and everyone pretty well concedes that.

Since we are resourceful, we will rebound. But can each individual state within EU rebound effectively from the grip the Germans and French have on them, without breaking from EU in some small ways?

What always gets me is "how good it's going" in Spain, yet buying a home is almost impossible for the average family with two workers. Here in the US, it's a reality. People can afford, and do buy homes, and realize their dreams.

Of course, in a utopian society of "socialistic governments" people wouldn't have to own homes. The government would own them for them.

Kind of like the nice two room apartments that families of six to seven occupied in Moscow when the good old Soviet Union was prospering for the "good of mankind."

Ain't that something to look forward to? A two room apartment, probably cold water at that, for six or seven people....

Not my cup of tea. I prefer the 4,000 sq.ft. opulence my wife and I enjoyed when we raised our three kids, along with the massive fenced in yard where our cocker spaniel roamed free, the apple tree, the lilacs, and the lofty pines... It was our own little park.

Wolf

Wolf,

We truly live in paradise. Gosh it's funny how greedy corporations provide the highest standard of living the world has ever known.

Cristobo: We have been hearing coments about our impending doom for years here in the US. As per your coment about China, I would not debate that with you. They are a rising economic power. Concrete, we used to order a load today for three day out delivery. It is in such short supply now that it could take two weeks. Reason being so much is being shipped out to China.

One of the things that we gage a strong economy on is like Wolf and Gazpacho mentioned, individual home ownership. Here in the US as has been mentioned on this board before we live in single family dwellings as opposed to large apartment type buildings. Obviously that is not the case for 100% of the Ameircan population. For the most part it is, and you can drive down the street and tell which houses are owner occupied, and which ones are renter occupied. We as Americans are constantly being critized for not being "Socialist/Capitalist" The idiot that makes that accusation does not either know or understand, is that the largest single "Socialist" program in the world is the US housing market. We have many gorvernment subsidized programs, so that anyone with a total household income of as little as $25,000 per year can buy a house. Obviously for $25,000 per year of income we are not talking about them buying a palace, but it is their own house. We even have one program where as, a US military veteran can get a house with no down payment. I don't know what sort of programs Spain has, if any, to help people buy their own home.

My comment about the Eurpean Union not lasting though is based on the fact that those countries have spent several centuries at each others throat now to have one central power doling out orders and directives, I just dont see long term success in it. France has always been the "fly in the ointment" with everything being "their way or the highway." Watch what I tell you when the EU comes falling down, it will be over somthing that France set off. Remember you read it here first.

DD
You have made a very good point there. Yes, I agree the Federal Government in the US has found many ways to subsidize the economy. After all, you don`t pay taxes for fuel, do you? Not to mention subsidies for farmers. I am sure those measures add up, eventually, more money in the budget than all the "ministries of social affairs" in the EU altogether.
Being it so, I plain don`t understand the arrogant contempt that Wolf often displays towards this "Soviet-like" European continent, when the state plays such an important role in American economy and society.
By the way, Wolf, I see that you still read my posts and even bother to write replies for them. It is flattering, really.
I am a bit uneasy about your hint, DD, that there are not resources enough on Earth to supply such a big consumer as China. Will the oil crisis outbreak now that the Chinese are about to drive cars instead of bycicles?
It is great that you all have such a deep faith on American capacity to overcome bad times, but faith is only that, not reasoned opinion. It may prove right, it may not. You are assuming that the future will come out to be just like past, that Europeans will fight the 30 years war again, and that the US will survive a new 29 crack. Well, maybe.
But maybe not. There is only one rule that you can take for granted in human history: nothing lasts forever.
Youngsters in our country can`t afford a homestead of their own, it`s true. But it is also true that this land, this continent, has gone through an amazing process of economic growth, faster and faster along the last fifty years. My father can still remember when our village received power supply for the first time...and only forty years later, we are all watching DVDs and communicating in English through the Web.
I am aware of European history, but I don`t think it means a thing. Punic wars, the Night of Saint Bartholomew and WWII are equally alien to us young Europeans. Things change.
There is one thing, at least, that would prevent me from living in the US, and it is lack of liberty. If I have to rely on things that I read from your fellow Americans, it is a tricky thing to say what you think in America. Apparently, the left will hang you if you ever move an inch from political correctness, and the right will send you to Guantanamo if you try to get your nail clippers into the airport.
I like American movies, but not American news channels.

Cristobo: It is not quite as bad as you make it out to be, but your point is well taken. I have cautioned some members on this board about some of the things that were said, as I know that boards like this are monitored by both law enforement and intellegence agencies. It is no problems at all to track down who is behind a post. One memeber came out last week in support of terrorism, I would not be surprised to find out he has been dragged into a Madrid police station to explain himself.

As a constitutional form of government, at two hundred years old, ours is now one of the oldest and still holding on. I dont think I know of anyone that has been sent to Cuba over nail clippers. I do know the point you are making.

Trust me on this one, I can assure you that we pay taxes on fuel. Both automotive fuel and domestic energy such as electric, propane, natural gas, and home heating oil. Trucks that use diesel for hauling goods over the road pay an additional tax. The only way around it is to produce your own energy such as windmill, solar electric or a small hydro unit for home use. I have a friend that has built a methane digester for running his own cars on methane. Only problem is he has to fill his tanks at home and the cars have been modified to run on methane only,so anything more than a half a tank from his house he cannot go. He has the emmisions checked once a year and the cars usually have very little measurable exhaust emmissions. Good for the enviorment.

Cristobo,

To be honest, I find your posts interesting, and they make me further my own research on issues. Sometimes the points you make - from your perspective - are very compelling.

Although we may disagree "quite a bit," I honestly have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. If there aren't opposing points of view for our own beliefs, we'd never find common ground for mutual understanding.

In fact, I think we could sit down for a cup of coffee and enjoy talking to each other, and would find we'd end up being friends, despite our points of view.

In fact, we'd probably end up using those points of views as a way of "jabbing each other" in a humorous way. In other words, we'd get along quite well.

Wolf

Cristobo,

Now that's a unique concept. Our government subsidizes low income families with housing in certain cases, but it's our economy that provides the money for our government not vice-versa. And when our government does decide to ease up on a taxes, it's the government that's decided to be less of a drag on our economy. They're not subsidizing anything.

Wow! That must be a socialist concept that the government subsidized the economy. Sounds like something from the media, or a press statement from the Dems.

I realize I'm jumping in late, but you know what they say..."better late than a thread without a little 'Basco." Bear with me as I respond to a few musings of note:

from Bricamb:
Don't forget that the mujahadeen were financed by the US/CIA. Not that we're any friend of islamofascism...it was the lesser of two evils. Oh, and a little-known fascist dictator was given a few $$$ by the US as well in a protracted war against its islamic fundamentalist neighbor...Just offering another reason why the azules may have fought...not as fact but as postulate.

I didn't know about the flag dipping, but as a non-military man who would die defending freedom in this country, I'm with Wolf...I believe the anthem is "long may it wave" not "long may it bow in obadence to [fill in name]."

Cristobo:
. That is one of the greatest viewpoints I've seen here or anywhere. I agree 100%.

Also, very astute explanation of French military history, as well. I will go further and say even when they were outnumbered, they found a way to lose [Agincourt]. Yet they have this misguided notion that they are major players in international geopolitics, which was only fostered by their geographic position as a defeated nation liberated by WWII 'victors.' Didnt deGaulle later speak out against America after the US bailed him and his nation out?

From Wolf about "Zeta":
...exactly. At least Aznar "sucked up" to someone worth sucking up to that had actually effected some good in the world. Let's see...Germany...quasi-responsible for WWI [Austria-Hungary and a little agreement], VERY responsible for WWII, and France...responsible for decades of bloodshed at the outset of the 19th century, and a relative no-show in WWII...

Ignacio:
...and Hitler invaded a neutral Belgium...twice...I don't see the WWII Allies having the same ideology as the Nazis...do you think the Americans were "wrong" to liberate France from a puppet government? What it eventually boils down to is whether you are pro-democracy or anti-democracy.

If you are pro-democracy, you're pro-"liberate puppet regimes." If you're anti-democracy, you probably feel that the current governments in free countries are puppets of the United States. Do you think the US invaded an occupied France with designs on empire building? Maybe they did it for the wine.

This has been an interesting thread...but I share MM's query: Isn't this supposed to be about the "Dia de la Hispanidad?" I'm starting a thread tomorrow entitled "Zapatero Leaves Americans out of New Year Celebration" just to see where it will lead in two months...You can't PAY for entertainment and thought this good! Thank you all!