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#82198 - 05/21/04 11:13 AM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
Joe Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 15
Loc: Bridgeville, Pennsylvania
The disastrous economic and energy policies of Bush?

Hey, I'll take a 5.6% unemployment rate - and dropping - over Europe's unemployment rate anyday.

Bush's energy policy was filibustered. It has never been enacted. Therefore it cannot have failed.

War plans for Iraq? At any time, there are war plans for several contingencies in the Pentagon. Iran, Cuba, Syria, etc. That's part of what they do.

The Red Cross? The same organization that fouled up the donations to the survivors of 9/11? I have no faith in that organization. Same with the UN.

The Worldwide Left is all up in arms over the prison scandal - which is being investigated and the perpetrators punished. Meanwhile, terrorists continue to kill and try to kill.

Yet Bush is the one bad guy.

Hope you all LOVE having Shoe Boy in charge.
Hope you all LOVE morphing into France and Germany.

How soon before Andalusia becomes, once again,
al-Andalus?

Go, Shoe Boy, Go!!!

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#82199 - 05/21/04 11:31 AM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
Asterault Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/01
Posts: 536
Loc: Gijón
Um, while this pout fest is fascinating, I have just one question: Who is shoe boy?

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#82200 - 05/21/04 11:41 AM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
Asterault Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/01
Posts: 536
Loc: Gijón
Ah, never mind I got it. Such intelligent humor to be found on this message board. rolleyes

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#82201 - 05/21/04 03:47 PM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
Silvita Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 148
Loc: Chicago
Ah, yes, the great unemployment rate of 5.6%. Combine that with the $5.2 trillion deficit that Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy gave us, and we're living in an economic paradise! Oh, wait, but gas prices are at record highs. Is it lack of production, or can it also be blamed on the devaluated dollar, that is causing investors to dump their investments in U.S. currency for bonds? Also, our foreign debt is about 33% of our gross domestic product right now thanks to Bush. Few countries have been able to carry foreign debts of that magnitude for long. Currency devaluation and an economic downturn are the usual result of such poor debt management, both of which would knock the props out from under American world leadership. Did we learn nothing from Argentina?!?! Keep your money in your mattresses if Bush is re-elected, people!

And it's great that your hatred for Arabs and Islam is enough to make you blind to the inconsistent policies of the Bush administration. While Americans couldn't fly in the days after Sept. 11, Bush's best friend, Prince Bandar, also the ambassador to the U.S. from Saudi Arabia - and the man who saw Iraq war plans for Iraq before Colin Powell did, had the Bush people give special permission to fly members of OBL's fam back to the middle east without being questioned by the FBI first.

All you hear all day, IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ. Well, what about Iraq? rolleyes Saddam was captured, yet M-11 still happened. Why? BECAUSE IRAQ AND AL QAEDA ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. Al Qaeda is a web of terrorists who, if they do receive state sponsorship, it's probably from that great place I mentioned before, Saudi Arabia. But most likely, they are just small, autonomous cells of crazies that work independently of each other and fund their acts by selling marijuana. Bombing Iraq won't get rid of these. In fact, if there were 100 AQ cells before we bombed two Arab nations to kingdom come, now there are 1,000. And what are we doing about it? Well, Bush is doing his part by cutting funding to local emergency response agencies and local law enforcement agencies. In light of the news today that terrorists will target our rail networks, sounds good doesn't it?!

So call me unpatriotic, go ahead and say that if I don't want Bush in office, then I'm for the terrorists or I'm going to become French, or that I only get my info from the liberal media. YAWN. I've heard it all before. Stick and stones, y'all. It doesn't change the fact that Bush is the most incompetent president we've ever had. I actually miss Bush the Elder!!! rolleyes :o

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#82202 - 05/21/04 03:51 PM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Joe,

You seem to have struck a nerve. Way to go, I couldn't agree with you more. :p

Ah Silvita, we've heard all that crap before too. Yeah Saudi Arabia....yawn.... rolleyes

Can't wait for Mr. Heinz to sort it out.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#82203 - 05/21/04 03:59 PM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
Silvita Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 148
Loc: Chicago
Good comeback! :p rolleyes I'll ignore the mysoginist implications of your Kerry comment, but yes, 'Mr. Heinz' WILL have to sort it out.

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#82204 - 05/21/04 06:08 PM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
almohada Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 152
Loc: Madrid
Silvita,

>>Ah, yes, the great unemployment rate of 5.6%.

I would not discount how important that figure is for all Americans from immigrants trying to make survive in a very competitive economy to the possibility for labor mobility. Over the past two decades, all efforts within European policy circles have ben focused on trying to reduce the endemic structural unemployment realities found in Europe. It was no laughing matter under Felipe Gonzalez (22-23 percent unemployment) nor is now in France and Germany, where UE rates are closer to 10%.

>> Combine that with the $5.2 trillion deficit

Try to avoid using absolute $ figures--it undermines your arguments. Besides your number is off by a factor of 10! The US budget deficit is forecast to be about $500 billion and that is relative to a $11.5 Trillion economy. These deficit figures sound HUGE, but given the size of the US economy, it is not really so large as to warrant panic. It is about 4%, large but not extraordinary (in WW2, the US budget deficit hit 30% of GDP!! Also, the budget deficits of France and Germany are roughly the same size in terms of %). In 2002, France had a budget deficit of 3.9%, Germany 4.1%. Don;t really see this comparison emphasized in the press, do you?

Perhaps, you were talking about the current account deficit (our position wrt other countries). It is around is 4+% of GDP. But given our growth rates, productivity rates, our relatively cheap US$, and the incredible buying of US treasury instruments by overseas governments and investors, esp in Asia, the US can "handle" higher deficits than say all of Europe. Also, the flexibility of the US labor market does not fan the flames of inflation as one might think.

So please take the horrors being reported in the press with a grain of salt. Really the worry is not much lower in Europe.

>>that Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy gave us

While I think US taxes are way, way too high, I am also no fan of Bush's handouts to the wealthy. See, we can agree smile

>>Oh, wait, but gas prices are at record highs. >>Is it lack of production, or can it also be >>blamed on the devaluated dollar, that is >>causing investors to dump their investments in >>U.S. currency for bonds?

The devaluation of the dollar has been great for the US, keeping its export markets very healthy, much to the chagrin of Europe. Our production has been very strong. Think of it. The implosion of the asset bubble. The greatest terrorist act in history. Two wars. A less than competent president, and we still grew in 2001!! Freakin' incredible! If the Chinese want to continue US debt, great, they will bear a large share of the burden of any future US inflation.

>>Also, our foreign debt is about 33% of our >>gross domestic product right now thanks to >>Bush.

I am not sure what you mean by foreign debt, but the US national debt is growing, now 67% of GDP, almost exactly the same size as it was in the middle of Clinton (1995-96). How about our buddies in france and Germany? They are both around 60%. The tragedy is how we have socialized our economy to the point to becoming more "European." If Americans want Europe, move to Spain (debt 55% of GDP and deficit of 0%, 2002 figures. Hate Aznar all you want but he pulled off one of the greatest economic turnarounds in modern European history.

>>Few countries have been able to carry foreign >>debts of that magnitude for long.
You are right. Probably only the US.

>>Currency devaluation and an economic downturn >>are the usual result of such poor debt >>management, both of which would knock the props >>out from under American world leadership.
Well, that cannot really happen since the USD floats and is not fixed. The USD can depreciate but not devalue. The debt may be growing but the interest payments within out debt are far more manageable. Think of. Borrow $10,000 on your credit card at 1% or borrow %8,000 at 5%. Who has a harder time making monthly payments? Bush can jack the debt up since interest rates are soo low.
The worry expressed by the IMF is NOT with the US, but with what potential problems the US economy might cause other countries. Believe me, the US economy is as solid as a rock. Not the case for Germany. The Spanish would be smart NOT to follow Germany lock stock and barrel.

>>Did we learn nothing from Argentina?!?! Keep >>your money in your mattresses if Bush is re->>elected, people!
Sorry, the scare tactics don;t wash. Argentine was once one of the richest countries in the world. Now it lags behind several African countries. It has developed GREAT economists but has a political elite class that are among the worst, most corrupt and most incompetent in the world. They have been a basket case for 70 years. There per capita income is 20-25% of the US.

>>And it's great that your hatred for Arabs and >>Islam is enough to make you blind to the >>inconsistent policies of the Bush >>administration.

Whoa, now that is personal. Far from being anti-Arab, most Americans were pro-Arab and getting fed up with Israel and Sharon. Then came 9-11. Then came Palestinians dancing in the streets. Then came an assortment of macho nose-thumbing, which I found amazing given a Texan president in the office. Everybody loves to point out how Americans are not culturally knowledgable. Well, anyone who understand the US knows Texans have just as much bravado and machismo as anyone. Now 2 1/2 years later, noble quests have dwarfed by incompetence and idiocy on all sides, including the behavior of just about every G-7 government. But please don;t simplify the past four years. Don;t forget that the UN passed resolutions in the 1990s that gave clear instructions to the UN to enforce transgressions. One day, Europe as a whole will actually do what they pledge to do, instead of mastering the art of hot air.

>>So call me unpatriotic, go ahead and say that >>if I don't want Bush in office, then I'm for >>the terrorists or I'm going to become French, >>or that I only get my info from the liberal >>media. YAWN. I've heard it all before.

Once thing that is wonderful about life is that NOTHING stops you from byuing a R/T flight and moving to a 1000 Euro/month room in a flat in the outskirts of Paris. You will find life really hard--unless of course Mommy and Daddy set you up nicely. Now I am being cheeky, but really, it is NOT easy to build a life in Europe if you are not European. A year or two is easy.

I don;t think being anti-Bush is unpatriotic. But somehow thinking there is a svaior or short cut or change of scenary will elimate all ills is simply naive--the very saem naivete that plagues Bush.

>>Stick and stones, y'all. It doesn't change the >>fact that Bush is the most incompetent >>president we've ever had. I actually miss Bush >>the Elder!!!

I will leave by agreeing with you (surprised?). But... if he is so grossly incompetent, is it not downright amazing that Gore lost the predential election (he should have won by a landslide) and that Kerry remains neck and neck with Bush after all of what has happened in the last three years?? Hey Dems, do yourself a favor, FIRE the hell out of all your leadership and start listening to Arianna Huffington, the only pundit/intellectual who makes sense on the left.

So if you are truly patriotic, you will make sure Bush loses by 300 electoral votes and 20% of the pop vote. If you don;t care, then perhaps France is your best option as a place to blow hot air without action to back up anything since...Napoleon?

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#82205 - 05/21/04 09:33 PM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Excellent post, Almohada. You are an education.
Thank you.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#82206 - 05/22/04 11:10 AM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Almohada,

Can't say I can stand Arianna Huffington, but the rest of your post is very good. smile

I myself would vote Democratic if they could tone down the liberalism. John Kennedy was a good president. Not great, but good.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#82207 - 05/22/04 09:43 PM Re: Z has embarked on a dangerous road
almohada Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 152
Loc: Madrid
Gazpacho,
I have to say I from a strategic POV, the Dems would do well to listen to her. She seems to be the one Democrat who can debate using consistent logic. Of course, she was the champion debater at Oxford when there to get her Master's in Economics. Together with Paul Krugman, they are a formidible intellectual team, far dwarfing the hacks that tend to survive the campaign trail. And no, I am not a Democrat. But I cannot wonder why their voices are always pushed aside for more extreme and less intellectually consistent POVs. And yeah, I will admit that she charms me with a wit I don't see enough of in the US. She has fun debating without getting base. I love it. smile

As for JFK, I am not quite old enough to know much of his admin other than through historical analyses. But you know, I have his Inaugaral address on the laptop. And geez, what a speech!!! And in no way can that speech be interpreted as being from the left or the right.

IMHO, America would be better off from trying to match the ideals in that address or in the examples set by Washington and Lincoln. I am just thinking aloud here, but I think the America we all believe in (in the US and in globally) can be found as much in their words as much as in their deeds. Both on the left and right, it seems that we are as far away from those ideals than we have ever been in my lifetime.

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