It is sad to read these posts some 2-3 weeks later and realize that today, our collective fears were unfortunately realized. Z has decided unilaterally and with no meeting with Bush or NATO or the UN to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq.

What a cowardly politician. Sure, he campaigned to do as much. I ackoeldge that. But for all of us who have been around the block, candidates promose evertyhing under the sun. Once elected and installed and ONLY THEN, do leaders of countries have acdcess to the latest and most detailed military intelligence.

To withdraw troops with nary a hint of consultation and within 48 hours of la investidura, is so childish and appeasing to the naive that it is frightening to behold. At least have the intelligence and maturity and guts to argue your terms with Allied leaders.

Acting in this way, Z has burned bridges not just with Bush, but with everyone who has ever had the courage to act based on principle.

His timing in politically perfect, at least domestically. Tourist $$ is starting to pour into Spain. However for Spain's business community that does something other than cerveza and jamon iberico? Welcome to increased domination from the far more sophisticated coroprations of France and Germany as Spain "mean reverts" back to the nest and its place as the #8 or #9 political and economic player in Europe (behind GER, FRA, RUSSIA, UK, ITALY, SUISSE, Sweden, and perhaps a number of other countries...)

So did anyone take my bet?

It would be too easy to say that I took my own bet, but I did not. I didn't think Z would be so short-sighted as to pull his troops out so quickly.

If you took my bet and won, please proceed to window #5 where you can collect your winnings (a churro con chocolate)

[Originally posted by almohada on 04-27-2004 10:41 PM]

qui pro quo: the real agenda of Z...

...but at what price.

From Reuters...

MADRID, Spain (Reuters) - Spain will ask anti-war allies Germany and France to join in a proposal calling for a U.S. exit from Iraq and a new international presence in the country, a Spanish government source said Tuesday.

"The idea is to see if Spain, France and Germany can help the United States find an exit from Iraq...and devise a formula for an international presence there that would not be perceived as an occupation by most of the population," the source said.

New Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, whose first decision on taking office was to withdraw troops sent to Iraq by his predecessor, said Tuesday the last of Spain's soldiers will have left Iraq by May 27.

Zapatero will make the proposal during talks with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder in Berlin Wednesday and with French President Jacques Chirac in Paris Thursday. Germany has already expressed interest in it, the source said.

So...what is in it for Spain under Z? What is the quid pro quo for the nakedly public deeds of withdrawing troops, repeatedly thumbing noses at the US in Iraq, and leaking news that Spain will propose to France and Germany that the US leave Iraq for an "international" force (that failed to enforce the UN resolution in 2002 in the first place). What little political perks and perhaps a few economic bones will Z "win" as a result of its public embrace of everything Franco-German?

More loans and grants for infrastructure? ECB and EU positions? (Rato would be too convenient for my argument, but the facts are that he was high in the pipeline months ago. Still, reports citing French and German approval seem to indicate that any resistance fell quickly by the wayside).

One thing for sure, if I were Chriac, I would bring Z to every major political function possible. Great face and in-your-face time, no?

Let's all wait and see what this latest version of a "world leader pledged to fight terrorism" will receive for each pull of the puppet's strings.

Ahhh, mi España, a donde se fue? I will admit, it hurts to see Spain jump ship, not to her own ship, but to the Europolitik ship of France and Germany. How I wish she had the courage to go on her own, like a Sweden. But as much as I think Z is selling the soul of Spain, I am sure PR man that he appears to be, Z will get a good price.

Not quite blood money, but something that does not sit well.

You know, Almohada here is trying to get rid of that almoahda that is qround his waste. I took as much needed run around Retiro. Almost immediately, I came across the glorieta of the Plaza de Independencia. And raised in a very pro Mexican family, I was thinking, geez, independence from whom? After all all of Latin America celebrates its independence from Spain. But then I remembered Goya and SPain's fight for independence from Naploeon's France. Now, I don;t know if that is the independence memorialized by that Plaza. However, it is funny how life repeats itself, though with different manifestations. Back then, Napoleon tricked Spain into unifying in a contintental war against Britain, only to invade Spain herself and install his brother on the throne.

Today, no trickery is needed, just quid pro quos and photo ops. But the end result is the same, no?

To those who think of Spain as España and not Europe, Viva la independencia de España!

Hi all,
I am Madrileño and I can tell you with all the respec to your way of thinking that most of the things almoeda says make nonsense to a spaniard like me. Spain was one of the countries in the hole world were the war against a poor country devasted by another war and a dictator was strongly refused, before Madrid blasts 80% of Spain population was against the war because of petrol and we show it to the world with millions op people on the streets, because that's the truth, you fight for petrol not for freedom. Zapatero promised to get out of Irak before the elections so it is a must to Zapatero to get our troops from Irak, but if you think almoeda that the blasts maked to change decission in the spanish vote you are really wrong, what these blasts and the lies said by Aznar about it when they allready know that was Al Qaeda pushed people to go voting, but please note that Aznar's party PP losted few votes I think about 800.000, What means? Simple, most of the people who voted Aznar in 2000 voted PP again even if they are against Irak ocuppation, but why did he lost the elections? Put an eye on the participation, the ones who did not go voting in past elections voted in this election and most of them are PSOE supporters (Zapatero's party)
If you think that a Madrileño doesn't know what terrorism it is and we are scared about it first of all I should remember you that we've been hit by ETA year by year since 1973, so as you can imagine we do know what terrorism is all about. My city fighted and resisted in the Spanish Civil War for 4 years against Franco with a very strong support of Hitler, one little village of Madrid community declared the war against Napoleon. what I mean with all this is that Madrileños are like pacefull lions having a little rest, but we still being a lion and we are not scare of death if we think that our way is the just one, just like the US people.
I hope that Disney will allow at last the show of Michael Moore's new documentary about the real reasons of the war against Irak and maybe you will start to realize that we do have very strong reasons to be as far as possible of Bush political behavior.
I’ve been in the US and I can tell you that I really love this country but the thing I love most is the US people I’ve been allways proud of having the oportunity to meet a lot of US people althougth you are not perfect and you can be wrong too. ;-)
I think almoeda you claim implicitly for an economic war against us because with the data we managed most of the europeans think US government is wrong, what is next? Bombing us with nuclear weapons if we don’t think the way you do?
Now let’s talk a little bit about your president. Hopefully I know that US is a huge country, there are oppinios of all kinds and there is a strong opposition too against the war on Irak against Bush and against human rights abuse, tortures and US not supporting Kioto (this was one of your president first decission when he get to the White House if I am not remembering bad)
World is ruled by US, great things have been done by your country in the name of freedom an justice you did great job lot of time but not with president Bush he is a dangerous guy behind that stupid smile that we shows on TV holding a plastic turkey, he is like that turkey great look but plastic inside.
I think Bush is like a big elephant in a hardware store triying to find where the trees are destroying all the items in his way to the jungle search inside the store managed by military and petrol companies as his father was. We tries to hunt flies with bombs.
US is able to do the greatest and the worst things in the world is like a spoiled child that gets angry when people doesn’t think the way he does and it is the loving father that gives his live for his sons with no doubt.
I hope that you understand that you must respect Spanish people decission even if you don’t think like us, because getting off our troops from Irak won’t hurt or kill inoccent people and we think we are contributing to make this world a better place.

Please excuse my english as it is not my mother tonge.

Ah, the old "War-for-Oil" bit. I'm sorry, but logically this makes no sense. Think, if Bush were only interested in Iraqi oil, then he would make a deal with Saddam and buy it from him, the cheapest and simpliest way to obtain any commodity (which is what, come to think of it,what France, Germany, Russia and the whole "anti-war" coalition was doing). Why would the US launch an invasion that was guarenteed to halt the flow of oil from Iraq, if the "war-for-oil" argument is to be believed?

No, the "war-for-oil" was actually being fought from the other side, the "anti-war" bunch. For years, officials from the UN, France, Germany, Russia and leading "anti-war" advocates in Britain were stuffing their pockets with millionns and millions in bribes and 'concessions' from Saddam's Oil Ministry while Saddam built palaces and fed his Swiss bank accounts with skims and kickbacks. Now we know why France, Germany et.al. were so keen on keeping Saddam in place. Why kill the goose that lays golden eggs for you? The corrupt "Oil-for-Food" 'program' will soon be exposed as the greatest humanitarian aid rip-off in world history. But don't hold your breath waiting for Le Monde, the Mirror or the New York Times to make it front page news.

In return for Saddam's millions, France, Germany, et.al. insulted and belittled the U.S. In a choice between a nation that has been generous beyond belief, and has been no threat of any kind and one of the most vicious, bloody and repugnant dictators of the modern era, who had demonstarted an appetite for agressiveness, support for terrorist groups, attacks on defenseless civilian populations within his own country and a desire to harm the USA and was by any measure an international outlaw, the people of Europe, led by their corrupted goverments, chose the dictator.

Now the people of Spain, led by their new knight in shining armor, have rejected a strategic relationship with the only nation that can help defend them against further jihadist offensives. And there will be more to come. Do you believe you have slaked the thirst of al-Queda and its allies by your abandonment of the United States? Not bloody likely (emphisis on 'bloody'). You have merely encouraged and emboldened them. Sticking your head in the sand won't stop your a** from getting kicked.

I thought most had dropped the "war for oil" routine when it became obvious that the US wasn't stealing any.

Michael Moores latest political farce was never in danger of not being distributed. It was a publicity stunt. There's no shortage of those willing to show his fabricated nonesense.

The "torture" that you refer to was awful - but isolated and small. It is - and will be aired out fully - and honestly.

I read that Spain is not meeting Kyoto agreements (El Pais) The US emissions have had a net drop over the same time period. Perhaps only the US should meet these limitations?

Europeans know that there is no danger from the US when they disagree - which is why there is such a popular pig-pile on it. Why not? There's no real consequences, outside of losing a few tourists.

Skunk, the series of bigoted statements about Bush shows nothing but ignorance about the man, his motivations, and his policies. And believe it or not, I say that respectfully.

Also, the best hope for making the world a better place, is not to abandon Iraq. The best hope for peace is a free and democratic Iraq. The greatest hope for Arab democracy now exists there, and folks like you will be shocked when the coalition pulls out upon their independence.

Also, we don't HAVE to respect the Spanish decision, but we do. I haven't seen Americans burning the Spanish flag, or figures of Zapatero - or even calling him stupid. Can you say the same?

About your English - no problem - maybe that means you won't be able to pick out my many typing errors!

I feel like I have lost the battle from the beginin, I'm not talking in my mother tonge and just for writing some kind of worlds I know that my IP will be scanned for years just for talking about these problems. And I know that you won't understand me. I will always remember September 11th like one of the worst days in my life as I will do with March 11th and the way I think about Bush goverment is far away from what I think of the US people. Once said that all of us are loosing freedom from Coffi Anan who was spied by your country, the palestinian 14 years old boy that stick a bomb to his body, to a simple IP adress like mine that is making this world a worst place to live. I don't have solutions I have thougts about this terror I am not pretending to encourage no one against no one but is not possible to stop someone that thinks he is getting dozen of virgins in the afterlife for blow up himself in a bus in Israel or a Train in Madrid with nothing to loose but to win. I live in a country where all you have to do to get to it from the home country of those who killed in my hometown (please dont't forget that as I don't forget 11S) is taking a boat by night and ship for 7 miles. Islamic community has a very strong feeling of brotherwood and for what I can see or read they've been felling masacred. I dont know the answers but I do have some questions, is the right way the way of the war againts terrorism? We also had in Spain a dictator for 40 years and fortunally we had what was called the transition let's promote transitions in all these poor countries that need to invest a lot in education, but let's give them their time and let's show them what the human righs are, and in my opinion, is not posible to show that on Guatánamo or in Irak's prisions as we've seen. US has the technology, the money and the power but that doesn't mean you're alwas right in all the things your goverment do and revenge is not the way to follow as we can see in Israel.
I do not wonder what some people that takes as an ofense the democratic decisions taken for try to solve in a different way what we have allready seen that doesn't work when you hear that it was a lie the mass destruction weapons issue, the way US goverment Spies the ONU etc etc etc... Some people always will have a good reason for all that, even if they don't know and I think is a deep need of revenge. And that takes us to nowhere.

Skunk, first of all - you expressed your views clearly enough - & I don't take it personal!

I feel that your conclusions and views are wrong - and nothing more. The US (and yeah, even Bush) are not as evil intended as I think - you believe. The action in Iraq is not an act of revenge. The cost has been great (even for those brave Spaniards who gave their lives there) - and the intent is for freedom - NOT oppression. We need Islam's help, but we can't expect much from them when their living under midevil savage dictators. This action is our greatest hope for change - it's not guranteed, but I'm rooting for success. Hopefully, the ardent anti-Americanism (or anti-Bushism) won't have them rooting for failure in Iraq. We all win if the coalition is successful....

Fup

What you all said far know I strongly agree with this:
Spanish goverment decision could be seen for the terrorist as a victory.We need Islam's help, but we can't expect much from them when their living under midevil savage dictators.
And know I'd like to make some comments that I felt like it was nessesary to me to say something about frases like this that can be read on this forum:

"Right now its a difficult time for Spain. They've moved from the side of the US to the side of the French and Germans, and God only knows neither of them will lift a finger to help Spain secure the safety of their own borders, or give them support in fighting terrorism".
It is clear for me that you don't understan Europe's spirit
"Acting in this way, Z has burned bridges not just with Bush, but with everyone who has ever had the courage to act based on principle"
So you mean he has no princeples, how do you call order turtures to prissioners and left in an island people for more than 2 years without a lawer even if they are terrorists?
"the people of Europe, led by their corrupted goverments, chose the dictator."
Is a very serius offence to me to hear things like this, because I am alwas talkig about Bush goverment, not about US people. But sounds weird from my point of view as I think that you has a really great president with Clinton but you trated he harder than Bush just because some b***jobs. B***jobs vs tortures I do prefer b***jobs!!! This seems to be a very hypocrite acctitude.
"Sticking your head in the sand won't stop your a** from getting kicked."
Sounds like the one who wrote this is waiting anxious for the day Madrid blast came again.
"Skunk, the series of bigoted statements about Bush shows nothing but ignorance about the man, his motivations, and his policies. And believe it or not, I say that respectfully."
I didn't call anyone an ignorant althougth it is funny for a spaniard like me that heared from one of your presidents that Spain was Near Mexico or by a senator call Spain republic when it is a Monarchy, but I am glad to see so many Us people in this forum so well informed and in possesion of the absolut truth.
"This guy is pathetic..."
No comments as I can imagine you could be the typical US guy that could ask me if in Spain we live in houses or if we use kleenex.
"Europeans know that there is no danger from the US when they disagree - which is why there is such a popular pig-pile on it. Why not? There's no real consequences, outside of losing a few tourists."
Tourist is the main industrie in Spain, so in my opinion this is to take risks.
"The fact that the Z government is now refusing all intelligence cooperation vs. terrorism is odd for a man who knows next to nothing about terrorism but all too clear for a man who has already sold the soul of his countrymen to the evil of Al-Q."

So you think this is not to take risks and be a coward? We don't have the technologhy US has. Is difficult to smile to a sentence like this because US press and some politicians yesterday still calling ETA terrorism "Basque rebelion" and I insist YES IN SPAIN WE KNOW VERY VERY WELL WHAT TERRORISM IS, is US the one who becomes to realized what means that word.

"Also, we don't HAVE to respect the Spanish decision, but we do. I haven't seen Americans burning the Spanish flag, or figures of Zapatero - or even calling him stupid. Can you say the same?"
Yes I can because I just said that he has a stupid smile not that he is a stupid, big difference right? And also I never saw any spaniard burning an American flag although I guess that maybe some day some spanish could have done somethig as stupid as that. And I am showing you that you are wrong about that no one has said things much much harder and not just about Zapatero even to spanish people just for doing what we promised in the elections and we voted for.
"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war." - Winston Churchill reply to Neville Chamberlain's claim of "peace in our time"
Paste this in this forum talking about what we talk is like to say to me that I don't have honor because I don't think like you.

I would have to pray for Z that he may get back some semblance of duty and honor and start acting as a leader of a proud and once defiant and independent Spain. My goodness gracious when will this nonsense end??!!
I can tell you as you won't know that the Aznar govermet total aligment with Bush lies has been a very very important factor for his banned of the goverment.

"Considering how he is capitulating in this extreme it would almost appear that maybe the socialists did not just reap the benefits of the terror attacks on the trains.. one must wonder if a deal may have been struck at some time before that with the terrorists. "
Excuse me if I couldn't shut my mouth I had to try to offer a diferent vision of the problem to say something like this is like to say that Bush planned the 11S with Talibannes (wich were strongly supported and trained by US in the past to make war against URSS) in order to have the perfect excuse to start 2 wars one against one of the poorest country in the world and the other with an incredible oil pruduction and with lies about a treath for the world of the massive destruction weapons be able to get the control over oil pruducction in Irak, to get huge reconstruction contracts to boost the public investments in weapons development and cancell the contracts that some countries in Europe allready had and by the way making as difficult as possible the development of a united Europe separating Spain european parthners that make possible the actual developement of my country overcome Germany who really makes a huge effort and it is called Europe Engine's. Seems like US just wants Europe as customer not as a partner As well as cut freedom in the hole world. Sounds weird for you right? Let me tell you that you'll be surprised on how much people think this around the world and please let me tell you that I don't think in any way that 11S was planned by Bush but he is not a nun indeed and he has used the situation, US will make a lot of money with this and will get more power and control over the world. Also let me tell you that of course Spain wants democracy for the rest of the world and of course Zapatero would have keep the trops on Iraq under the ONU mission. But not under Bush wishes and orders. To be a goog friend should't be confused with to be a Bush policies's slave.

And about Kioto that was another good reason to ban Aznar from the goverment.

Geez skunk, take a breath - I'll respond just the ones that apply to me:

"B***jobs vs tortures I do prefer b***jobs!!! This seems to be a very hypocrite acctitude."

Well, this one doesn't really apply to me, but I'll answer anyway... I too prefer b***jobs! - As I'm sure does Bush. But doesn't advocate torture, and I think you know it.

""Skunk, the series of bigoted statements about Bush shows nothing but ignorance about the man, his motivations, and his policies. And believe it or not, I say that respectfully."
I didn't call anyone an ignorant althougth it is funny for a spaniard like me that heared from one of your presidents that Spain was Near Mexico or by a senator call Spain republic when it is a Monarchy, but I am glad to see so many Us people in this forum so well informed and in possesion of the absolut truth."

That changes nothing about your missconceptions about Bush. And dissagreeing with you is not a defect. So you don't think you're speaking the truth too?

""This guy is pathetic..."
No comments as I can imagine you could be the typical US guy that could ask me if in Spain we live in houses or if we use kleenex."

I didn't make the above comment - but, does the "typical US guy" you meet really ask you that? - Or are you just expressing the anti-American bigotry that you claim you don't have...

""Europeans know that there is no danger from the US when they disagree - which is why there is such a popular pig-pile on it. Why not? There's no real consequences, outside of losing a few tourists."
Tourist is the main industrie in Spain, so in my opinion this is to take risks."

Not much in the way of a "risk".

"Also, we don't HAVE to respect the Spanish decision, but we do. I haven't seen Americans burning the Spanish flag, or figures of Zapatero - or even calling him stupid. Can you say the same?"
"Yes I can because I just said that he has a stupid smile not that he is a stupid, big difference right?

No.

""And also I never saw any spaniard burning an American flag although I guess that maybe some day some spanish could have done somethig as stupid as that. And I am showing you that you are wrong about that no one has said things much much harder and not just about Zapatero even to spanish people just for doing what we promised in the elections and we voted for.""

There's been no comparison, I haven't seen a single person take to the streets against Spain. Even the new Spanish government came in with a string of anti-American comments - and you haven't heard ANY from the Bush administration about Spain - outside of it being "regretible" and "Spain is still a good partner against terrorism".

"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war." - Winston Churchill reply to Neville Chamberlain's claim of "peace in our time"
Paste this in this forum talking about what we talk is like to say to me that I don't have honor because I don't think like you.

Nope, it's a statement about the foolishness of believing that you can be reasonable with mass-murderers. In the end, you'll have to deal with them - except later on "their" terms.

"I can tell you as you won't know that the Aznar govermet total aligment with Bush lies has been a very very important factor for his banned of the goverment."

This wasn't in response to me, but let me say that - had the election not been heading towards victory for Anzar - and then switch after the mass murder of Spanish citizens, the results would not have generated much response from some of us at all. It was the overwhelming sense that the terrorists had been handed a victory that left many of us shocked. The motivation of the voters mattered little to the terrorists who believed that terror brought them success. Elections everywhere are now in danger, even if Spaniards didn't mean that to be the result.

skunk, I get the feeling that you don't come in contact with those that disagree with you much... you take it too personal. You wail that you've been insulted - while throwing them out. I can honestly say that I love Spain, without indicating that I think their partially retarded - like you seem to feel about the "typical American". And yep, I think I'm right... that's called an opinion - which you have a few of yourself!

Buenos noches! :o