Oh brother. What an exchange.

Wally is entitled to his opinion, Kevin, and he's thankfully expressing his opinion in a mature and intelligent manner. Thanks for that, Wally. And Kevin, your sarcasm to Wally by calling him "Einstein" is bordering on name-calling. Careful.

I think it might be about time to start a new category for those who'd like to express their displeasure with the national elections in Spain. The exchange in these threads is like a broken record and we're repeating ourselves over and over with responses. Frankly, I'm tired of it. Maybe a forum category on POLITICS should be created and that way those of us (like me) who would like to avoid these topics could simply avoid that forum category altogether.

Anyone else think a forum category on POLITICS would be useful?

Saludos, MadridMan

I take affront to the letter too. To say that Bush is responsible for 3-11 is an irresponsible statement to say the least. Obviously a statement made because the person hates Bush, not based on any other criteria. I certainly don't consider it a mature and intelligent statement when it's intended to make a personal political statement.

Although I am ardently against Bush, I believe that a little research would have told Wally that planned attacks against Spain had been in the offing long before the invasion of Iraq. In fact, the Andalusia statement was coupled with the invasion of Afghanistan. A legal action.... if you wish to call Iraq illegal..... which the UN essentially is involved in.

To me, using a statement like that is wrong, and as far as I'm concerned is bashing.

Wally can send a letter to anyone he likes, but lets face it, this was posted here to create a reaction, and he got it. What would anyone expect an American to do? Just accept what he said as fact? Hardly! This certainly can't be a one-sided board either.

Wolf

I don't get how blaming anything on Bush can be offensive...
Are you his relatives?

Deibid,

Just a reminder as to what an "Impartial view" you have of the situation, and your love for the US.

deibid
Full Member
Member # 3929

posted 03-16-2004 10:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, our country will never be like the USA.
I like it that way. So do most of this site's regular posters. Please, STOP BASHING!

[ 03-16-2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: deibid ]

--------------------
Fanta Limón! mmmmmmmmm...


deibid
Full Member
Member # 3929

posted 03-16-2004 10:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, MM!
Do you know? what most 'me cabrea' about these new posters is that they come here and they don't know anything about Spain, they just come and do some bashing because we have 'betrayed USA'.
WHAT??! Betray USA? They don't know that most citizens didn't want to become USA's allies.
Did you know that a referendum held in 1982 said NO to NATO?
Well, new posters, go away and eat your 'freedom fries'!

--------------------
Fanta Limón! mmmmmmmmm...

deibid
Full Member
Member # 3929

posted 03-16-2004 11:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Kevin.
I don't consider you a basher, BTW, good manners are always wellcome.
In response to your message: You are right about the french in WWII.
Now let's think about Spain... where was the USA when FRANCO, A FASCIST DICTATOR FRIEND OF HITLER, ruled our country for 40 years?
answer: supporting him.
We don't have any reasons to be USA's allies.
Not that it's a bad thing, anyway.

--------------------
Fanta Limón! mmmmmmmmm...

deibid
Full Member
Member # 3929

posted 03-15-2004 11:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"just that the election handed the terrorists another victory"

That IS disputible because it's not true.
It makes me terribly sad that someone thinks like this.
Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY had in mind the terrorists' will when they headed for the election.
There were endless rows of electors with things clear in their mind.
If we had not voted, THEN the terrorists would have won.
BUT WE VOTED, and had the highest number of votes of the last 25 years.
Aznars gov has made a lot of mistakes, and it has been punished, that's how it works.
If you don't believe in Spain's democracy, then I'll keep my right not to believe in America's.
And I will remind you how George W won his election.

[ 03-15-2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: deibid ]

Nothing you say would be considered of value because you hate us. As for your comment about me being related to Bush, would that be any of your business in the first place?

As for "bashing," you certainly took a stand earlier, as can be seen in one of your comments. You didn't like it when Spain was being bashed, but if it's anti-American, that's fine.

Then you use a serpentine method of saying the US supported Hitler and Franco because we had normalized relations with the Spanish government. The last time I looked at my history book, it said we fought against the Nazis, not with them.

Sorry! You hate America, and you cuddle up to any American who would say something bad about our country. Really now! Isn't that kind of two-faced when you wanted the "ugly posts" against the Spanish elections removed?

As for the nations being allies, fortunately there are cooler heads than yours running the government. They'd laugh in your face if you said they should avoid being part of anything with the US. IF they agreed with you, what would you do? Close your borders to all Americans?

But thanks for your caustic remark anyway. It gave me a chance to reflect on your true attitude.

Wolf

Thanks for the support, Wolf. I like the potpourri you have posted, it looks like you are really interested on me.

Remarks:
1.-I NEVER said that the USA supported Hitler, it's written in your own post. I see that copy-paste does not guarantee careful reading.
And yes, a normalized relationship with a dictator is form of support.

2.- I do not hate the USA. I was there in 8-2001, on top of WTC, I enjoyed the visit, I met nice people, and I cried and suffered a month later at home.

3.- I always have been kind and I have never insulted anyone. See my 'relationship' with Kevin. It's not the case with others.

4.- Being an ally or not being an ally has nothing to do with the things you say (i.e. closing borders). I mean that the stupid 'coallition against terror' is that: stupid
There are better and LEGAL ways to do things against terror.

My POLITICAL thoughts have nothing to do with hate. I do not hate an entire country just because their president is a nerd. I have a more open mind.

Sir,

That is exactly what you posted, and is cut and paste. If you edit the text to make it read something else it will show on the bottom. But rest assured, they are your exact posts. I did nothing to them. You can change them if you want, but we'll all know you did.

I repeat your comments in regards to Hitler and Franco;

But if that helps you avoid appearing as cynical as you are, so be it. Who am I to rain on your parade.

As for your hatred, I didn't say you hated Americans, I insinuated you hated our government and everything it stands for. I don't think it would make any difference who was in office because your posts say it loud and clear.

As for my interest in you, it's very little, except to try to understand why someone can feel the way they do. I saw nothing of substance in what you offered to make me believe you had a point to make that was able to be researched. Had I seen anything I would have researched it before making a post, not take you to task for what I consider nothing but bitter remarks.

Fortunately my concerns for Spain, the new government, and the people, doesn't have any strings attached like yours does to ours. We'd never be friendly nations if everyone felt like you.

Wolf

I still fail to see where I did say that the US supported Hitler.

Insults should never be part of a discussion

Anyway: Not Bush nor Aznar were responsibles of the killings the other day. Al-Qaeda (or whoever was behind the attacks) was the unique responsible of the killings.

Fernando

Hi Madrid Man,
I don't envy you. My two cents worth wrt your question on opening up a Politics forum.

This is what I would do...

(1) Prohibit all politics henceforth on all forums
(2) As you proposed, open up a Politics thread, but one with a cache that empties everyday.
(3) Restrict the hours or even the days
(4) Consider weaning us off until the Politics is completely shut off...

While I think the past week has been extraordinary and unbelievably sad, I for one am immeasureably grateful that you gave us a long leash with which to vent considerable emotions from about a zillion different angles. I learned a lot of good things and a few not so good things, but such is life, ¿no?

However, where I reside normally--mind you I am in Madrid for a contract job--I used to belong to a message board. Even without such a dramatic and tragic event, that board deteriorated into ENDLESS streams of nastiness, etc. When you throw politics, race, patriotism, etc. on top of tragedy and emotion, it is a recipe for tremendous negativity. Like debating the existence of God. An Endless do loop...

You sit atop a giant pressure cooker. You opened up the valve. Much of the venting has been done. Seal things up before contaminants enter your cooker. I say this not because I don't have opinions or political POVs. I do, and very strong ones. However, I am mindful of the noble raison d'etre of this website. And IMHO, you would wise to slowly and definitely turn down the flame to off.

And to my friends, Spaniards and Americans in particular. We are in two countries that are themselves equally divided. Much that was said over the past week, reflects the tension within our own two countries. Neither Spain nor the US is completely united for or against this or that action. We are citizens of two countries in which the sitting leader received less than 50% of the vote. We are two countries in which our two major parties have much ill will and cyncism for the other. We are discussants in which there is considerable arrogance and contempt for the other side within our own country.

Suffice to say that many of us are likely to have more in common with our counterparts in the other country than with our fellow citizens.

MM has given us a long leash this past week. While it is tempting to keep on driving my point through thick skulls who don't seem to "get it," I am sure others have the exact same sentiments--partially because I know my noggin' is as thick as they come. While spirited debate can be wonderful and very stimulating, it would also be terribly unfair to MadridMan who has labored long and hard to built up a site in which the lefties of the US could bond with the lefties of Spain and the righties of the US could bond with the righties of Spain...AND...where through love of art, music, food, and travel plenty of cross breeding could be fomented !!

SO I am voluntarily withdrawing from further political debate as I have said all that I needed to say and hopefully made a few friends in the process. If we can all take away from this the really love that I have seen on this board for the past four months, there is hope that the bonds between the US and Spain can remain as strong as ever, though we will need to work hard as the the tides of geopolitics are such that we will ALWAYS be swimming upstream. And frankly my hair is graying faster than I want!!

My two centimos de valor...

Cheers, A

Almohada,
I vote for cross-breeding! :p hehee... Thanks for your comments/suggestions for the proposed political category here on the message board. No way to empty the cache everyday though, sorry to say.