Anyone else notice that this (and other) threads have turned into a place for Spain Bashing for new members? Well guess what! Here's a news flash. Just as I ALWAYS eventually have to do on the ETA thread, this one too will meet is end. I'm just counting the minutes.

ATTENTION NEW AND ALL MEMBERS: WE WILL NOT TOLERATE CONSTANT SPAIN BASHING HERE. THERE ARE OTHER PLACES, I'M SURE, WHERE YOUR OPINIONS ARE SHARED BUT THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM. WE INVITE YOU TO LEAVE. THIS IS A PLACE FOR SPAIN LOVERS NOT SPAIN HATERS!! CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED.

And before you jump on the 1st Ammendment (Freedom of Speech), it doesn't exist here. So watch it!

OH-SO-SINCERELY, MadridMan

"Two, the PSOE has made it known that as long as Spain is not attacked, the forces of terror will not be met with opposition."

This is what I don't understand about the PSOE. If they want to keep allies, they might want to rethink this stance.

As far as people that STILL pray to the United Nations, as I have already stated, these yahoos are a group of appeasers and "feel-good politicians". They appointed the Sudan, Communist China, and Libya, countries with some of the worst human right's violations on Earth, to the Human Right's council. They appointed Iraq and Iran to the Disarmament Committee, before the US and it's allies attacked, and they passed several resolutions against Iraq that they didn't act on. This organization is as inept as a 90 Y/O man without Viagra in front of Pamela Anderson. As far as people in the States, I can, if you wish, bring up several, SEVERAL quotes from liberals that supported going into Iraq when Clinton was in office. THAT should show EVERYONE in the states, and everywhere else, that murder, terrorism, etc. is all too often used as a partisan ploy. John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, et. al. ALL supported going into Iraq.....until Bush was elected. Why? They can't stand the fact that a Republican can be right.

Funny, this isn't an American issue as I am seeing it throughout the world. When it comes to defending my country, this partisan bull**** goes out the window. I hope all of you feel the same.

MM, I hope you have seen that I have never once engaged in "Spain-Bashing" and have only been courteous to my Spanish brethren.

Kevin, my above posting was not directed at you specifically but to EVERYONE. These new-Spain-bashers might find themselves on the OUTSIDE of the walled city of MadridMan's ALL SPAIN Message Board if they don't watch themselves.

I understand. I am an Administrator with an NCAA sports board. It's totally understandable.

I am sickened by many of these posts. Killing is NOT the answer on either side. Why do so many Americans feel that it's either our way or the high way? Not everyone does things the "American Way" (thank god!).

Right. They kill us, we kill them, they kill us, we kill them. Eventually we'll all be dead, I guess then there will be peace?

Um excuse me.. but Spain JUST ENDURED the scale of 9/11. This makes me sick that you think Spain can't understand how 9/11 feels until over 3,000 people die? Utterly ridiculous.

It wasn't just 3000 dead. It was the plummet of our economy and everything else.

You sit there and sing Kum Bay Ya all you want, do you think NOT taking them out is an answer Mrs. Chamberlain? Maybe they'll leave you alone if you don't bother them. Is THAT your response? History is your friend ma'am. I suggest you study it. You canNOT bargain with terrorists.

Jennita,
You are making a fatal assumption. You are assuming that those who support military intervention think that killing is the answer. You are 180 degrees off base. Military intervention is used to STOP the kiiling and chaos.

four examples.

Haiti 2004. the chaos, looting, and wanton massacres has started to ramp up before the US intervened. The bloodshed literally stopped overmight. Yes, there is a occasional death, but the proper point of reference is pre intervention not utopia.

Rwanda 1990s. The world did not intervene. My guess is that the US would have had they not been interevening eveywhere else and had self-righteous fingers pointed at them internally and from our laughable UN allies. SO geez, what happened? 500,000 innocent people massacred using machetes and being burned alive. 2 million people left homeless creating an enormous humanitarian and environmental disaster. Are you sure you still support no military intervention? OK next one.

Cambodia 1975-79. Yep, the Killing Fields. Taking full advantage of US policy fatigue in the region and typical UN sitting on their hands, Pol Pot and company roll into Cambodia and kill 2 million people and decimiate the arts and cultural infrastructure of the country. In the process, they lay millions of landmines without mapping them that continue to kill today. Do you know how it stopped? Vietnam invaded Cambodia!! Go figure!! Still a fan of doing nothing? Next slide.

Yugoslavia, 1990s. Sarajevo 1984. Beamingly proud hosts of the 84 Winter OLympics, where my former coach competed. Within 5-10 years, the stadium which hosted the Opening and Closing cermonies was a cemetary of over 100,000 dead. It was PAINFUL to watch day after day after tortuourous day, while European leaders jabbered on and on and did NOTHING. Finally the US went in (one of Clinton's high points) and started bombing the Serbs to stop the ethnic cleansing and systematic massacre of Muslims (yep, hard to believe Osama, isn't it?). Within a few short months, the killing STOPPED.

While there is nothing more desireable that peace now and forever, if you have even once picked up a real history book (without pictures), you would realize that military intervention can stop the KILLING, with a capital "k." Why when presented with fact after fact after fact, indisuptable and complete with numbers and dates and details, do folks like you continue to think that if we all just sat down on our Smith and Hawken benches and in our JCrew sweaters that the world will all come together and forever love each other???

And my list...I left out the HUGE ones. Armenia 1916-1917 nearly two million butchered by the Turks; USSR early 1930s 15-20 million killed in Stalin's move to colidate power; China 1958-62 20-30 million starved to death in the Great Leap Forward.

The saddest moments in history are those in which the world stood by and did nothing. Glorious pronouncements of protecting the dignity of humanity but only under conditions that we might actually have to back up our flowery words with action are wholly disgusting to any person who has lived under such regimes.

real

Almohada, I salute you sir.

Kevin,
I am curious. Has the power of logic ever worked with these folks? Or do they need a jarring tragedy (or series thereof) to get them to cross the threshold into rational thought?

About 14 years ago, it took a couple of months in a liberal Mecca, a trusty copy of Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead at my bedside, and a girlfriend daughter (now my wife) of an avowed libertarian to "convert" me. But I think I was easy as I wanted to be challenged. To the contrary, these folks are defensive and seem to prefer to thicken their veil before ever admitting reality to enter their world.

I don;t know, but it is an axhaurting process. Are you as tired as me?

Cheers, A