Simple question to all Spaniards:

Did your government do what you wanted when it entered into the war in Iraq? Or, were you happy/proud your country was part of the coalition forces?

It seems many many people see the name "SPAIN", give their opinions about the election results, and these people think that politicians are reading their postings. They're not! The people of Spain, the REAL PEOPLE of Spain are reading your posts and it hurts them because THEY did not choose nor did they want to be part of the war in Irag. The government of Spain acted with its own agenda, AGAINST the will of the people. When you as a government burn your own people, you can expect they're going to get even with you sooner or later. And guess what. THEY DID! They voted their butts out of office. That's a democracy for you. That's how it works when it comes to voting. But we all know that politicians tell us all what we want to hear and then, when they're finally in office, they pretty much do what THEY want to do.

I'm proud of Spain in many many respects. They're a proud people and they do love their country but many are not nationalists and that's fine with me. They don't need our (USA) approval to choose their politicians. Let them make their own choices and live with the consequences.

You haven't read many Spaniards trying to debate these accusations here on the message and I'm proud of them for them that. They don't feel they need to explain or defend themselves to us. Good for them.

And as for everyone (everyone? Seems like only those from the US to me!) putting them down for their elective choice, well, don't you think THEY were quite upset with OUR (USA) choice of presidents this last time? Yes. They were upset, i'm sure. But you didn't see them here on this message board slurring him or our entire country or questioning our collective I.Q.s because of it. And besides, did WE (USA) care what Spain thought about our choice in presidents? Of course not. Chew on that for awhile. It's done. Man elected. Past. Written in stone. Now let's all shut up and live with it. No amount of silly chatter or hindsight debates are going to change that. Wow, I'm steaming. Time to close finish message (but not the thread) before I say something I'll really regret.

Jeez Louise! MadridMan

Actually, MadridMan, there were opinions all over the world about Bush. Hell, we were called "Warmongerors" for going into Afghanistan. I hope Spain never has to endure something on the scale of 9/11 and never criticized them for ousting Aznar (Their choice), but a "hands off" approach to today's problems is not going to solve anything. Pull out of Iraq all you want, the US will step up to the plate. I don't have a problem with Spain.

...now France........ saved in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam only to turn their backs on us and we then found that missiles created after '91 being shot at us had France's fingerprints on them and the backdoor dealings with Chirac and Hussein.....well, that's another story. THEY didn't ask for the UN's approval when they launched their attack in Africa. I pray that they never need us again. "I" will go to Canada to avoid a draft if it's a war to protect France. ....and I am no coward. I will not lead one troop into battle to protect France.

I am US Citizen who was born and raised in Spain for half of my life. I did not vote for Bush (nor did the majority of the USA). I do not support the war in Iraq. I do support our troops (no matter what country). However, when any country in the world is in need, whom do they call first --- the USA! When they need us, unfortunately sometimes we go, sometimes at the expense of American lives. However, when all we need from other countries is their moral support (Spain at first did not send troops), that is when we see the world's character. I am not calling all Spaniards cowards, just those that seem to think that by giving into terrorists is the right thing to protect themselves. I was there on 9/11/01, we were not at war and had no warning. It takes a great man to stand up for what he believes, even if he doesn't have his countries backing, and do what is right.

My original post was based upon these underlying assumptions:
1) Hundreds of people were killed in Madrid as a result of a terrorist attack. (And I grieve for
those victims and their families more than you can possibly know).
2) Prior to the attack, the polls showed that the Spanish people were going to elect Asnar's hand picked successor.
3) al Qaeda has taken responsibility for the attacks and have said they are because of Spain's
involvement in Iraq. Which, just by the way, is clear confirmation of the link between Iraq and al Qaeda, out of their own lips!
4) 2/3rds of the Spanish people vote for the Socialist Party, who now promises to pull the Spanish troops out of Iraq in June(significant only for its symbolism, rather than for its substance. There will be less than a mere ripple felt by those in Iraq).

Based upon these assumptions, there is only one way that I can view what has happened, those
who are responsible for killing the people in Madrid have scored a HUGH victory. Regardless of
all the tangential issues people have thrown into this discussion, I guarantee you that those
responsible for the train bombings are rejoicing and gloating about the impact they have had over
this election. Not only are they rejoicing, they are now emboldened. This makes me grieve even more for the victim's and their families, for it now appears that they died to further the agenda of terrorism which has succeeded.

If any of these assumptions are flawed please help me to understand. I am not writing this out of a liberal or conservative political position (in fact I'm a registered independent voter), just as a thinking, rational person trying to reason out the world’s political situation, especially as it relates to the war on terrorism. If I could draw an analogy of this recent Spanish episode to World War Two it would be this. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the United States would have ceased sending supplies to Great Briton, rather than declaring war on the Japanese. Please, help
me to see this differently!

Amen MadridMan.

America: 42% voted for PSOE (socialist party) not 2/3.

Fernando

MadridMan,

I was under the assumption the war in Iraq was over? That the troops are there to help rebuild the nation, and give the people an opportunity to find a democratic government through their own elections?

Since al Qaeda wants them out at this juncture, doesn't that tell anyone that al Qaeda wants chaos to be the rule of day in Iraq?

In essence, all Spain is doing is pulling out soldiers who are helping rebuild the nation, not soldiers in combat. It's simply a political maneuver that the Socialists decided would help them gain votes in the election, and they're sticking to it.

As for calling the people cowards, I don't think it's fair. They aren't cowards. But they also don't have the stomach to stick around and help rebuild Iraq either, because the war has been over for quite a while.

Wolf

Hey Wolf, I haven't read all the posts, only those of the posters I already know because this others are so nasty and unrespectful, so I have read yours.
What Zapatero has promise is that he will take the troops out unless a UN order is given. That's what is suppoused to be the international laws, not an alliance between a few countries, Spain will accept their international compromise while they'll be inside international laws and UN orders.

Miguelito,

That's the understanding I have too. But even if that doesn't happen, and they do leave, that's not something that should be held against Spain by Americans. It was a democratic decision in the election, and the new President made it part of his campaign pledge, and I believe he must honor that committment.

To be honest, I do believe the UN will be in Iraq in June. So the whole thing would become a mute point. Personally, I want that as well, and feel the US government should be pressured from within to get something worked out with the UN to step in.

Wolf

Now is conditional Miguelito?

I can still here Zapatero shouting his followere for inmediate return of our troops.

They won't come back anytime soon. He has made promises he is not able to fullfill.

Just my thoughts.

Fernando

Wow, the tone has certainly changed. This will be my third attempt to get this not on the board, but now it considerably more mild relatively to what has since been posted...

The fact the Z was elected should not be construed as the end of the world or cowardly, etc. After all, voting for a ruling party should never be about one issue. Apparently, the people did not like how the PP handled themselves on a number of issues and when given the chance, they voted for change. OK, fine.

Now, here is what I am having trouble with. The annoucement that Spanish troops will be pulled out of Iraq was devastating for a number of reasons.

One, Al-Q now claims victory. The elections could have been over a number of things. But to announce that Spain is pulling out of Iraq so soon after the horror at Atocha is chilling. Al-Q now knows that as long as they turn up the heat contries will forsake one another and rather than stick by their "principles."

Two, the PSOE has made it known that as long as Spain is not attacked, the forces of terror will not be met with opposition. On Friday, I marched with 2.3 million other Madrileños. The ONLY message-in its various forms--I heard that evening was "No al terrorismo." This march came at a time when the Spainish govt had infamously declared that it was 99% sure the bombing was the work of ETA. Yet, within 72 hours of that march, not only was it revealed to be Al-Q, but the elections swung by 11% AND the PSOE annouced it will pull troops out of Iraw. Wow! So rather than saying "No al terrorismo," really what the people were saying was "No al ETA" and "Al-Qaeda por favor no regresa a España," So anti-terrorism was not a principled belief after all. Big, big difference.

Look folks, stopping terrorism ain;t gonna be done holding hands or burning candles. These guys are nihilists, who seek only to destabilize. By making such a bold policy annoucement, the PSOE has essentially told Al-Q, "As long as you don't kill Spaniards, we won;t stand against your form of terrorism." I find that deeply unsettling.

Three, the victims of terror just lost an ally. There is one side of terrorism that always, always gets lost in the political debate...the victims, present and future. The people of Iraq are suffering under a campaign of terror, meant to imtimidate the allies into giving up helping the little guy. Their goal is to force the Allies out of Iraq and consolidate their power. For sure, the Kurds will be high on their list--they have already made this clear. Oh yeah, remember the Kurds? the folks that suffered 5000+ dead to mustard gas attacks under Saddam? Remember them, the victims of terror, while the world--apart from a scant few--stood by and did and said nothing? Well, if the Allies are gone, the Kurds will be the first to suffer. And unless the Sunnis kowtow to the Shiites, they too will suffer. So with Spain being so quick to pull out of Iraq, those who stand in between the forces of terror and their true intended victims have been recuced by one. So disappointing. And the message to Al-Q? "We are against terrorism in our backyard, but not anywhere else." "We are against ETA spilling Spanish blood, but will not stand against others spilling Iraqi or Kurdish blood." "We are against Al-Q in principle, but if you hurt us, we will bow to your wishes"

Four, the new Spanish govt made a policy decision to realign herself with and under the mandate of France and Germany. Again not because the PP was kicked out of power. No by joining the world of the "hot air" against terrorism--flowery speech and tough words, but so fighting against terrorism where it needs to be fought. Spain how returns to its former position, somewhere between #5 or #6 in the rigid European power structure, under Germany, France, Russia, Italy and perhaps either Turkey or the UK, depending on the issue. Its 15 min of fame and time of courage and leadership has now ended.

I feel thie new tension in my chest. While I still grieve for Spain and the victims--today we had a moment of silence for a colleague whose death was confirmed last night--that sadness is now mixed with the realization that this new policy stance is gravely in error.

What will happen with Al-Q strikes again long after Bush and Aznar are gone? WIll the old "No AL terrorismo" placards be dragged out from the dustbin? What will others in the world think? "Oh, we thought they were only aginst ETA?"

My heart bleeds yet again...I am numbed.