Hi, MM!
Do you know? what most 'me cabrea' about these new posters is that they come here and they don't know anything about Spain, they just come and do some bashing because we have 'betrayed USA'.
WHAT??! Betray USA? They don't know that most citizens didn't want to become USA's allies.
Did you know that a referendum held in 1982 said NO to NATO?
Well, new posters, go away and eat your 'freedom fries'!

"They don't know that most citizens didn't want to become USA's allies."

Fine with me. Seems this was also the contention with most French before WWII when they were handing over Jews in droves to Germany. Didn't seem to work out all that well for them. Thankfully for them, we Amercians are a compassionate group and liberated them anyway. That's really not a smart thing to say D.

Astounded!!!
Congratulations folks, I didn’t think that people could disappoint me, I thought I had a low enough opinion of people in general for this to be a near impossibility, but I take my hat off to a few of you. You write in saying that the attacks in Madrid last Thursday were an attack on liberty, democracy and freedom. And then, because the Spanish people had the audacity to vote for someone you don’t agree with, you call them cowards.
You say the Spanish attacks don’t matter as much as the 11th September attacks because only 200 people died. Should we therefore declare the bombing of the Pan-Am 103 was hardly important at all as only 259 folk died there. And what were those people in Bali complaining about after all only 202 folk died there. Hell I don’t know what they’re going complaining about in Israel, they only get 20-30 people at a time there.
The governments in Spain and the UK went against their own people in supporting the war in Iraq and soon Blair will also be made to give up his premiership. I don’t personally believe that he will wait for an election but will instead resign in favour of his chancellor to draw the fire. More over the reason the PP lost so many votes in the last days was that they didn’t tell the truth. They tried to manipulate a terrible event and were caught. It reminds me of a British ministerial aide who emailed her colleagues on 11th September 2001 and said that this would be a good time to release any bad news as it would be buried in the fallout from the horrendous attacks in NYC. It turned out that the only thing she buried that day was her career.
As far as Iraq goes my personal belief is that whilst Hussein was a vicious and vile dictator and the world is better off without him. Please don’t try to defend the war with pious hand wringing over his human rights record, the WMD, the treatment of the women. Was human rights the issue? Why then I guess the next country on the list to be invaded will be China. As a member of Amnesty International I can assure you that this very day people are being jailed, tortured, killed and ethnically cleansed in China. But will there be a war, will the coalition of the willing even refuse to send an Olympic Team. Nope! They’ll be there chowing down, after all there are millions dollars/pounds/euros (delete as appropriate) worth of business contracts up for grabs. Where are these famous WMD? I know he had them because George Bush Snr. gave them to him when he was friends with the West. But he was only supposed to use them against Iranians, not anybody that mattered. He ended up using them against Kurds as well, but hey its’ not like the Kurds are a country so they don’t count. Old Mugabe in Zimbabwe must be quaking in his boots at the thought of Tony Blair waking up one morning thinking that it was time to put an end to the horrific human rights abuses in commonwealth member Zimbabwe. Nah, last year Blair would even ask the English Cricket team not to play there on principle! Women’s rights, how about our good friends in Saudi Arabia? And hey, guess what that was the one area that Hussein actually concurred with western ideologies. Please check out the websites set up by Iraqi women saying that they fear losing the equal status they had in Iraq prior to this war. That I’m afraid is another case of someone confusing Afghanistan and Iraq.

Sorry for going on.

M.

Hi, Kevin.
I don't consider you a basher, BTW, good manners are always wellcome.
In response to your message: You are right about the french in WWII.
Now let's think about Spain... where was the USA when FRANCO, A FASCIST DICTATOR FRIEND OF HITLER, ruled our country for 40 years?
answer: supporting him.
We don't have any reasons to be USA's allies.
Not that it's a bad thing, anyway.

This has been enlightening. It looks like there are many who share my opinions, so I won't waste MM's GBs and put them here. I've got a foot on each side here, as I love Spain, have family and friends there and can understand the "betrayal" they may perceive at the hands of the PP.

Nevertheless, I can't shake the feeling that they've let terror shape their domestic policy. Now, in saying that, realize that the PSOE got a bare plurality and must coalesce with the IU and others to form a ruling congressional majority. 42% is not a mandate. Both Bush and Gore got 48% in 2000...even then neither got a majority. But 42%?

This leads me to believe that the pre-3/11 polls were correct. Rajoy was to be PM had the carnage at Atocha not come to pass. PP still ended up around 37%. 2% difference per train. Sad.

Another observation is that the turnout was up 7% over the prior election. This was a wake-up call to democracy in Spain, but the results speak for themselves. It is apparent that Spaniards overwhelmingly disagreed with the decision to send support for the Iraqi war.

What is disappointing over all this is that in 8 years, Aznar balanced the budget, cut the deficit and reduced unemployment in Spain from 25% to around 9%. Ever since my first trip to Spain in the 80s, unemployment had always been double-digit. I hardly think removing 1500 rebuilders from Iraq will make such an incredible difference in Spain as to warrant governmental change.

Aznar desired Spain to take its place at the international leaders' table. The electorate spoke loudly on Sunday. Their voices collectively said "no lo queremos." I read a quote of a 26 year-old Madrileño mason who said he was going to vote PP until Thursday. He changed his vote and was quoted as saying "maybe now 'they' will leave us alone." Irrational murderers and homicidal maniacs don't "leave people alone" until they're dead...and sometimes, they go back and urinate on their corpses.

What I do think will come of this is what others have feared as well: Spain will be al-Qaida's doormat, since they are perceived by those who wish to harm them as weak-willed. I know different, but perception is, unfortunately, reality.

The_keeper,
while I agree that there is no cause to call Spanish people cowards, I cannot understand the logic, if there is any, with the rest of your post.

The comment on Iraqi women losing their equal status??? Makes so sense. Yes Saddam ran a secular regime. SO did Hitler. Thousands of innocent Kurds gassed to death. Yeah, I guess when men and women are dead, they will have received equal treatment...And is the US arguing for unequal treatment? Of of course not. Go ask the Shiites.

The bulk of the worry hear is that think what you want about Aznar, but the concern with much of the board is on the policy pronouncements of Z. Tell me of the sense of a full retreat other than to give Al Q EXACTLY what they wanted?

Heaven forbid you hold any position of authority which requires decision making that impacts of the welfare of the young and honest...

I concur with Al and Cali, but deibid, I still don't think it's a smart move to not be allies with the US. Terrorists will not just leave you alone. We may have supported a fascist, hell, we supported Stalin during WWII but kept him at arms length, but it is sometimes necessary to pick the lesser of two evils.

"Tell me of the sense of a full retreat other than to give Al Q EXACTLY what they wanted?"

I'll tell you as Madrileño:

to give US, the people, EXACTLY what WE wanted.

There's something that you don't understand. You seem to assume that AFTER the bombing, maybe BECUSE of the bombing, Zapatero has decided to retreat troops.

It's NOT TRUE. Troops retreat was part of the Socialist's program, they always intended to do so.
And the people knew that and voted consequently.
We are not cowards and we are not stupid.

The_Keeper, thank you for your comments!

Right now, the war is over. He is basically pulling troops from a humanitarian mission.