Desert, I think that is such an exaggeration. I think you know better about Mexico, but write this kind of thing out of frustration or anger.

That is the thing about Mexico, it is not the worst or the best at anything worth mentioning. But I don't know why most Americans see Mexico just like you, like the poorest country on earth. The intersting thing is that the U.S. is not even listed among top 10 least corrupt countries. It is ranked 17!

World's 50 Poorest Countries, 2004
UN list of least developed countries:

Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Benin, Bhutan, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Kiribati, Laos, Lesotho, Liberia, Madagascar, Malawi, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Myanmar, Nepal, Niger, Rwanda, Samoa, São Tomé and Príncipe, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, Sudan, East Timor, Togo, Tuvalu, Uganda, Tanzania, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia.

Most Corrupt Countries in the World: (Mexico is ranked above the following countries - meaning less corrupt than 90 other countries).

Burkina Faso, Croatia, Egypt, Lesotho, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Laos, China, Morocco, Senegal, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Lebanon, Rwanda, Dominican Republic, Mongolia, Romania, Armenia, Benin, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Gabon, India, Iran, Mali, Moldova, Tanzania, Algeria, Argentina, Madagascar, Malawi, Mozambique, Serbia and Montenegro, Gambia, Macedonia, Swaziland, Yemen, Belarus, Eritrea, Honduras, Kazakhstan, Nicaragua, Palestine, Ukraine, Vietnam, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Bolivia, Ecuador, Guatemala, Guyana, Libya, Nepal, Philippines, Uganda, Albania, Niger, Russia, Sierra Leone, Burundi, Cambodia, Congo, Republic of Georgia, Kyrgyzstan, Papua New Guinea, Venezuela, Azerbaijan, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Iraq, Liberia, Uzbekistan, Congo, Democratic Republic of Kenya, Pakistan, Paraguay, Somalia, Sudan, Tajikistan, Angola, Côte d'Ivoire, Equatorial Guinea, Nigeria, Haiti, Myanmar, Turkmenistan, Bangladesh, Chad.

jabch,

I wonder where Mexico would rank, as far as poor countries, if it wasn't for the immigrants, legal and illegal, that send back money to prop up their economy?

Here's a thought. If the U.S. wants to curb immigration, not just from Mexico (which it seems people want to concentrate on), but also from Africa, South America, Eastern Europe and Asia, it should also look into the political policies and trade agreements it holds that favor our country and cause strife in others. If you want to have a serious debate about immigration, make sure you look past the Mexico issue to the political conflicts and economic problems around the world that strangely enough, always involve the United States in some shape or form (Liberia, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan come to mind).

I'm not saying let all the illegals in or give a general amnesty. But to blame it all on other governments is naive and shortsighted. Being the richest nation in the world comes with a price. It is unfortunate that while we shop Trader Joe's and buy our ethnic foods most likely manufactured and packaged in American-owned factories in China by women under the age of 18 who live in barracks making less than $1 an hour, we have nothing to say about corruption.

Silvita, with all due respect, I think that you should check your facts about China. China is still a communist dictatorship, and as such, foreign companies have limited rights of ownership and in many cases, such as GE, must surrender certain patents and technologies to the Chinese government after an agreed period of time. We (the US) have no control over the policies of the Chinese and in case you have not been following the story, they are nearly are equal in military strength. They artificially outcompete us by manipulating their currency and making production costs dirt cheap and there is not a damn thing we can do about it. They have stolen much of our technology and intellectual material, especially in machine tool technology.

And by the way, we are NOT the richest country in the world, and I bet that the nations that truly are the richest (eg. Bahrain, Saudi Arabia), do not buy your argument that "it comes with a price". Our nation is going broke due to the emergence of totally dependent permanent underclass of government subsidized poor and immigrants, who have as many children as possible. We simply cannot afford to go on like this. Remember, what really killed the former Soviet Union was that there were more consumers, than producers.

Jabch: You give lists of poor and corrupt countries, it is interesting to note that the US does not have droves of people coming across our south border from these countries. The problem of illegal immigration is truly coming from Mexico. Recently GWB had a meeting with your President Fox, and Fox told him in no uncertain terms that he was not going to tell his people to stop coming here. It would appear that Sr. Fox's solution to your economic wows is to export the problem to the US.

My problem with immigration is not "immigration," it is with "illegal immigration." It tells me that the person has not respect for our laws. Then comes the mentality that "well we left our country, but you the American citizen, must adapt to our culture." "You the American taxpayer, must now pay for my hospital stay, and change your schools so that my children can have a bilingual education at your expense." "Yes I know we would not do the same thing for you if you were in Mexico, but America is the 'land of the free' and we expect you to give it all to us for free." I just do not see that attitude coming from the other countries that you listed as being more corrupt and poorer than Mexico.

My feeling is that the Mexican govt. would not be so unresponsive to stopping the problem of exporting the problem to the US if they were forced to repay the American taxpayer for the expense of your fellow Mexicans. This includes repaying the hospital expense, paying for the cost of educating the children, repaying when one is involved in a car accident and not insured. The list could go on and on, of the problems that are being created by your fellow coutrymen. You can list all the poor and corrupt countries you want to. I don't see those on your lists creating the problems in the US, that Mexico is creating.

You can say that say that my feelings are from frustration, I say that it is from COLD RAW HARD FACTS.

Hey DD you mention this so called showdown between Presidents Fox and GWB, and how the bad guy Fox refused to help alleviate the immigration situation.
My question to you and other pissed off "Americans" is "what the hell has GWB or any of the last 4 or 5 US leaders (including congress) ever done to alleviate the problem?"
Do you really think that the immigration of 11 or 12 million undocumented people in such a relatively short period of time was an accident or that the US has had no power or control in the matter?
And to Dave B, do you actually think that the huge international monopoly capitalist corporations are going to invest billions in China without any guarantees or that they actually "roll the dice" when setting up shop and having "billions" of new consumers purchasing there products? Think Real!

Hopefully one day the US voting public will shake off the bs coming from on high and stop being concerned so much with relatively unimportant,divisive issues like "guns,gays,abortions, etc; and demand some real leadership and true democracy instead of our current crop of "hair sprayed, embalmed looking,$2,500 suit wearing, platitude speaking, bible thumping, sin huevos, clowns we are given to vote for every election day.
Probably going to really piss some off, but our old nemisis "Karl Marx" said many years ago,
"democracy is just a system that every once in a while allows the slaves to elect thier own masters!"
Are we going to prove this old commie right!

Yep Fulano, I am thinking real, what the Chinese
have not stolen from us, we will give up the intellectual property rights to through negotiations with them.

Just look at what General Electric has to give up to operate there...their new jet engine technology, and there is nothing that the "evil global monopolist, warmongering, capitalist, imperialist pigs" can do about it!

You need to read something newer than "Das Kapital"

Fulano: As usuall you are 100% correct, it is in fact all the fault of the American Govt, and the American public/taxpayer. How could I have been so stupid as to think that other countries should be responsible for their own people. My God how can you ever forgive this Greedy American Capitalist pig, for wanting his fellow man to be responsible for his own destiny. :p :p

Give me your tired, your weak, your weiry, and anyone else looking for a free ride in life, and the American taxpayer will give them a free home, free medical care, free food stamps, free education. After they have had the American free ride they can go home and tell the rest of the family how bad things are in America. I always think of the Belamy Brothers song where they say "at 6 oclock we turn on the tv and watch the news where the third world countries heap on more abuse."

By God Fulano you are right, it is all the American public's fault. Whatever came over me?

Gazpacho, DD, and all:

Mexico's living standards were actually higher 30 or 50 years ago. The middle class was broader and the income disparity was not as bad as today. Most people had a place where to live and decent food. But I think corruption has taken Mexico to its current state and more and more people are leaving. So yes, now the immigrants contribute a lot to the Mexican economy, but the massive migration from Mexico to the U.S. is a "recent" phenomenon. Before, Mexico was dependent on its oil and a closed economy were local producers and consumers were the players of the game. Now with NAFTA American companies own most of the big companies, most (medium-size) local companies went broke long ago, and the locals are only consumers and not producers. Which is not necessarily bad, but somehow for Mexico hasn't been the best.

Immigrants from other countries listed on the rankings shown on my previous message are not in the U.S., not because they don't want to but because they can't. They are too far from the U.S. But ask Europeans if they are receiving illegal immigration from those countries. Yes, probably in higher proportions than the U.S. Only Spain in the last few years has received 4 million immigrants from Africa and south-America.

The other issue is why you want to blame Fox for the immigration situation. I think promoting illegal immigration is unethical and wrong. It is sad, but in this world our presidents do many unethical things for the benefit of our countries’ economy. We complain about those unethical things only when they affect us or when they don't work out as expected, but not when they benefit us.

As to China, American companies cannot say "Oh! it is not us, it is the Chinese that do not allow for a change." Guess what? American companies own 60% of all companies sending products to the U.S. It is a paradox that the U.S. complains, and now tries to contain China, when the U.S. is the very same country that has fueled China's growth. I wish the U.S. had invested in Mexico a third of what they invested in China. But in Mexico we don’t have construction workers that work only for food and a place where to sleep and no money. I think China’s labor system, in many areas, amounts to slavery.

At the end of the day, I believe the U.S. has the power to stop illegal immigration on its own. Forget about Amnesty. How about just a database that employers can access to verify SSN’s? How about temporary working visas for unskilled working immigrants? What about requiring temporary workers to pay for their visas? What about requiring temporary workers to buy private health insurance to get their visa? What about given driver's license to immigrants with working visas and requiring proof of insurance prior to issuing the license? You think immigrants will not like these changes? They would love changes like these!!!!! All of these is doable in the U.S., and you don’t need a major immigration reform. The U.S. already has the platform (like consulates, labor department, a huge SS administration, local departments of revenue, etc., etc.) to implement these changes. However, I have the feeling others, maybe in corporate world, won't like a simple executive order implementing these little changes. What do you think?

jabch,

Lots of good points. And I agree, the U.S. government could very easily stop illegal immigration. And I wish it would.
I enjoy my brothers and sisters here from Mexico, and I try practicing my Spanish with them at every opportunity. But it isn't fair for people trying to enter this country legally.