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#80283 - 12/10/05 11:14 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Bill,

If you hadn't heard about it, you certainly have "selective hearing." This is just a google link, and page after page about the statement having been made - by Bush! You might want to read a few dozen of the links, then either recant your statement or give us a detailed offering as to why all these sources are liars.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=God+told+me+to+invade+Iraq

Wolf

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#80284 - 12/11/05 10:04 AM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Bill from NYC Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 657
Loc: New York City
Quote:
If you hadn't heard about it, you certainly have "selective hearing." This is just a google link, and page after page about the statement having been made - by Bush! You might want to read a few dozen of the links, then either recant your statement or give us a detailed offering as to why all these sources are liars.
Copy from The Age

The claim comes from the first meeting between the US leader, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (also known as Abu Mazen), and his then foreign minister in June 2003.

Copy from Scotsman.com news

The claim comes from the first meeting between the US leader, the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas (also known as Abu Mazen), and his then foreign minister in June 2003.

LONDON: An appalled, only marginally amused Britain and much of Europe has reacted with shock to an extraordinary revelation by the BBC, which claims President Bush confessed to senior Palestinian leaders that God told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.


Copy from the Times of India

Late on Friday, the BBC stuck to its original claims, made on video and tape by Palestinian negotiator Nabil Shaath in the course of a TV series to be broadcast next week, even as the White House dismissed the allegations as "absurd".

I stopped coping and pasting from the sources. It is more of the same journalist crap. What is scary is you and many others Google it, get more than one hit and you now believe IT MUST BE TRUE!

It is the same rumor and I will not believe the Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, he is a liar and will say anything that will keep him alive!

By the way I did not called anyone a lair. But I do consider you simple minded if you can Google something get more than one hit and then believe it is true! I did a Google search on "The world is flat" and there are more than 10 pages on it.

Bill
_________________________
William Bert Photography

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#80285 - 12/11/05 10:48 AM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
You guys and gals have got to be kidding.

Just because some obscure/enemy sources try to make us believe that the only reason President Bush attacked Iraq is because "God told him so"? Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life on this planet. I hate these drop in the cumulative IQ or our country. Has anyone ever heard of critical thinking skills?
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#80286 - 12/11/05 12:16 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Bill,

It has nothing to do with the "number of hits" related to the statement. The fact is, there seems to be enough supporting evidence that the statement probably was made by Bush. You've chosen to ignore that strong possibility, opting instead to believe it didn't happen, by stating "the media," as if it in its whole was "anti-Bush."

Ergo, I'll forego comment on your "flat world society," because I wouldn't even bother to look it up, knowing full well it ain't flat, and not thinking it was. But not because a political figure I adore indicates it was or wasn't, but because scientific fact says it isn't.

If anyone is simple minded, it would be a person who is blindly loyal to a political party/candidate, regardless of what their agenda is. Any thoughts on that?

Wolf

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#80287 - 12/11/05 12:25 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Gazpacho,

But we cannot categorically say that Bush didn't make that comment, can we?

Saying he didn't would mean we were privy to the conversation, or that he denied it.

Since neither is the case, conjecture says it's a strong possibility the statement was actually made.

The irony of it is that if he did say it he couldn't tell us publicly he did because it would make him a fool. If he did say it, and denied it publicly, he'd obviously believe he'd be facing the wrath of God for not telling the truth. But, if he didn't say it, I see absolutely no reason he hasn't commented to that effect.

Citing that he doesn't speak about private conversations is hardly true. He has on many occasions during his tenure in office, and on this one he claims privacy... that's something that makes me go; "Hmmmmmmm......."

Hell of a Catch-22 to be in.

Wolf

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#80288 - 12/11/05 01:21 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
fulano Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 138
Loc: califas
THere's an easy solution to these pertinent questions about decision making policy's and who influences or decides on US and World affecting actions, let's ask Bush! Oh yeah he doesn't answer questions unless he's set up for them on some military base or in front of some Republican money raising function.
I don't have any problem with anyone's political, religious,or sexual or other belief system unless they involve my or another person's freedom's as guaranteed by the Constitution and US Bill of Rights which protect us all from undue and illegal Gov't influence.
My greatest fear is that we (maybe I'm being paranoid!) have a sitting president that is being used like some Russian Hapsburg Czarina by modern day "Svengali's. Cause Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Tom Delay etc;; don't seem like "Born Again Christians" to me.

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#80289 - 12/11/05 02:29 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
fulano Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 138
Loc: califas
Fulano:"You have blown this way out of proportion. Let's start with the false premise that God told President Bush to go to war with Iraq. This is so much liberal antagonistic BS. Your willfully ignoring the fact that he acted on info from secular sources like the CIA, the previous administration, England, both Demo and Republican congressman etc;".

Are you serious Gazpacho!! The CIA, the FBI, the military, secret service, the UN, most of the counties of the world, numerous now "retired",military Generals ,
not to mention "history" have advised the Bush Administration on every thing from the presence of Arab immigrants taking flying lessons at schools from Ariz. to Florida and immenent acts of terrorism, to the fallacy and BS of WMD's,
the "Al Qalida connection to Saddam, immenent nuclear weapons production.
The invasion of Iraq and subsequent de-stabilization of the whole middle east, the lack of support from the world, the billion dollar looting of Iraq, the results of destruction of any "infrastructure" in Iraq, the phony trumped up "Welcome" by Iraq citizens, the lack of sufficient numbers of US troops in Iraq, the lack of firepower and armor for troops, warnings of the bad publicity inherent with torture and inhumane treatment of combatants' the perception and damage to the US as invaders and imperialists, etc; etc; etc;
The Bush administrations only response to these well documented advisories has been to ignore,deny, get rid of the messenger, selectively throw out, chose what they want to hear, torture until he tells you what you want to hear, discredit and out (covert CIA agents),
call real military hero's and patriots who don't go along with the party line "cowards" (John Murtha) and when all else fails, retreat to a "Bunker Mentality" and become untouchable.
So I guess it's just sour grapes by a bunch of "liberals" huh?
Maybe when a sacrificial lamb like "Rumsfeld" (he's made enough $$$ already) step's down as the fall guy we could end up with Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson as a replacement (real team players!) and then we'll discover the real meaning of "born again"

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#80290 - 12/11/05 03:15 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Just a few comments...

On Seymour Hersh, who won the Pulitzer Prize for his coverage of the My Lai incident, and since then has been hoping for another such incident. He though Abu Ghraib was it, but admittedly, he "fudged" a few of the facts during an interview about his coverage of the story:
Quote:
Many of his most shocking "scoops" in recent years have come at public speaking events, rather than in print, though Hersh caused a small scandal regarding his credibility when he admitted in an interview with a New York Magazine writer Chris Suellentrop, "Sometimes I change events, dates, and places in a certain way to protect people...I can’t fudge what I write. But I can certainly fudge what I say."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh

By the way, he also went after John F. Kennedy with equal "fudging." Here is an article by John J. Miller on Nationalreview.com about Hersh\'s fact finding methods.

Quote:
His methods came under severe criticism following the publication of his 1997 bestseller The Dark Side of Camelot and its negative portrayal of John F. Kennedy. While conducting his research, Hersh came across what looked like his biggest scoop since My Lai: a cache of unknown JFK documents offering apparent proof of an affair with Marilyn Monroe, among dozens of other tantalizing factoids. Hersh gained access to them through Lawrence X. Cusack, a man who claimed his father was a lawyer for Kennedy. The papers eventually were shown to be forgeries-Cusack is now in prison-but Hersh refused for months to disbelieve them, coming up with desperate rationalizations for skeptics who wondered why documents containing ZIP codes were dated before ZIP codes even existed. Hersh was so eager to get his hands on the papers, he wrote a letter to Cusack stating that he had "independently confirmed" the relationship between JFK and Cusack's father. This was a lie. "Here is where I absolutely misstated things," testified Hersh during Cusack's trial. Assistant U.S. attorney Paul A. Engelmayer accused Hersh of playing "a little fast and loose with the facts."

Ultimately Hersh stepped back from the brink. He tried to develop a television documentary about the JFK papers, and his partners were able to prove convincingly that they were fakes. The final version of his book did not cite them. But critics complained about the material he did use, because of its thin sourcing and its treatment of speculation as fact. "In his mad zeal to destroy Camelot, to raze it down, dance on the rubble, and sow salt on the ground where it stood, Hersh has with precision and method disassembled and obliterated his own career and reputation," wrote Garry Wills in The New York Review of Books. Conservatives enjoyed the controversy, because it involved liberals attacking each other and made JFK look bad. Yet Wills was essentially correct in his assessment.

Hersh defended his interest in Kennedy's sex life. "I put in all the sex stuff because it goes right to his character, his recklessness, his notion of being above the law," he told the New York Times. Hersh did not apply this same standard to what he called the "Clinton sex crap." One year later-and a month before Bill Clinton's impeachment-he lambasted the press for "climbing into the gutter with the president and the Republican radicals . . . the same Republicans who say you can't have Huckleberry Finn in libraries." When he did criticize Clinton, it was always from the left, for "what he's done to welfare, what he's done to the working class, what he's done to habeas corpus."

Hersh saves his real ire for Republicans, accusing the GOP of having a racist foreign policy: "Ronald Reagan found it easy to go to Grenada, and Bush found it easy to go to Panama, to the Third World, or to people of a different hue. There seems to be some sort of general pattern here." The war in Afghanistan must only confirm these prejudices.

The latest New Yorker story quickly became the latest Hersh controversy. Top military officials have denied its primary claim of a disastrous mission that included serious casualties. "That's not true," said Gen. Myers on Meet the Press, when Tim Russert asked him about the article. "My belief is that every soldier that came back from that particular raid is back on duty today; none of them seriously injured, certainly none of them injured by the Taliban." Rear Adm. John Stufflebeem concurred: "The reports I have seen just don't support that article's supposition." Army Gen. Tommy Franks added, "We had a bunch of these young people who, you know, had scratches and bumps and knocks from rocks and all this sort of stuff. And so, it's-it's probably-it's probably accurate to say that maybe-maybe five or maybe 25 people were, quote, 'wounded.' We had no one wounded by enemy fire."

Clearly, somebody's not telling the truth. Perhaps the matter might have cleared up if Hersh had confronted the generals with his information before reporting it. This is Journalism 101-let everybody involved have a chance to comment-and yet Hersh chose to consider only one side of the story.

It is difficult to double-check Hersh's work because of its heavy reliance on anonymous sources. Perhaps in time the full truth of October 20 will come out. For now, though, there is a single assertion in Hersh's story whose truth can be independently assessed. Hersh writes: "The mission was initiated by sixteen AC-130 gunships, which poured thousands of rounds into the surrounding area but deliberately left the Mullah's house unscathed."

The Pentagon won't discuss operational details, but it's extremely unlikely that the mission involved 16 AC-130 planes. The Air Force has only 21 of them, and a number of these are set aside for training in Florida. More important is the fact that these big planes, full of firepower, don't fly in such large clusters. During the invasion of Panama in 1989, the Air Force used only seven of them at once. In the Gulf War, only a few were in the air at a time. Would 16 of them lead a relatively small special-forces operation in Afghanistan? "It makes zero sense," one Air Force officer told me.

When I asked Hersh about this apparent discrepancy, he was dismissive. "I wasn't there. Somebody could have misspoke. I could have misheard. It's possible there weren't 16," he said. "If I'm wrong, I'm wrong." He did admit that he had made an error during his November 5 interview on CNN, when he said the mission involved "sixteen helicopter gunships" rather than 16 AC-130s. "That time I did misspeak," he said.

Although The New Yorker says it assigned several fact-checkers to Hersh's article, it would seem that Hersh is once again playing fast and loose with the facts. And what does that say about his central claim of twelve men wounded, three of them seriously? "That's what my source told me," he says.

This is more than a simple matter of getting facts straight. Hersh has taken his contentions and used them as a basis for blasting the conduct of the war. "The operation was much too big. . . . It was noisy. It was slow," he said on his round of TV interviews. "Delta Force is so mad that they think-the language is that this time we lost twelve. Next time, if they do it again the same way, we're going to lose, you know, dozens. We can't operate that way."

The next time he seems to break a big story in The New Yorker, though, it's important to remember that General Hersh wasn't there-and also to recall a line from Evelyn Waugh's Scoop, in which an editor advises a war correspondent: "If there is no news, send rumors instead."
rolleyes
Not that he may have gotten his "facts" right in the article that Fulano shared, but, I am a bit jaded about Sy Hersh and would question his validity.

I too have felt that unlike, his hero, President Reagan, President G. W. Bush has been for some time too quiet about the war front. Reagan, as we may remember was very successful with keeping the public informed with his radio "fireside" chats, emulating Franklin Roosevelt.

I noticed that among his own party his ratings immediately shot up.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#80291 - 12/11/05 04:18 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
fulano Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 138
Loc: califas
Ok Booklady you don't like or believe Seymour Hersh. But I ask you, Is it true? Is there some credence to what not only Hersh but many people believe "Is our president and his administration completely incompetent, or are they not only lying to the US public and costing young Soldiers lives, but has the whole catastrophe been a fabrication for who knows what reason. Like I experienced in Vietnam " who's going to be the last soldier killed in Iraq?, and what for?

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#80292 - 12/11/05 05:02 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
I agree with Booklady, inasmuch as Hersch isn't the most believable source of information. I too believe he'd be willing to "make the news" instead of reporting it.

But, since that's not the only source of this information, I can discard his statements and make judgements based on other comments made, beyond those that relate to the Hersch comments.

Wolf

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