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#80323 - 12/15/05 06:48 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Eddie, do you mean that: it ain't over until the fat lady sings! wink Is Ethel Merman dead?

Fulano, thank you for the compliments. In your reference to my statement, let me clarify that there is no inconsistency, it depends on what definition and usage of the words secular and amoral are used. Specifically the broader concepts of secularism and amorality that one uses.

This explanation from Wikipedia (article on secularism) may help you discern what I meant:

Quote:
Use secular to indicate movement away from religious affairs and toward worldly ones. This has been extended to apply relative to all religious or spritual beliefs, whether or not they include a similar doctrine.

Examples of secular used in religious contexts include: Secular goverments, which follow civil laws as opposed to religious instructions like the Islamic shariah, Catholic canon law, or Jewish Halakha, and which do not favor any particular religion.
An amoral person as I used it in my statement is one who believes in no moral code because "moral systems are arbitrary and unfounded on the whole."
(See Wiki article on amoralist.)

In the narrow concept of governments those in secular circles would prefer an amoral president, who has no moral beliefs, to a Christian one who is bounded by his moral religious beliefs. Christian religious beliefs evolve around the concepts of sin and redemption. These are seen contextually as moral or ethical concepts. A secular world-view by its very nature of eschewing religious context would logically see my preference as unacceptible.

Are my conclusions any clearer to you, now?

---
Gazpacho, of course Mrs. C. is a strong woman.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#80324 - 12/15/05 09:41 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Early on in page one of this thread, Fulano, you make the following statement:
Quote:
and also you feel that it's necessary to be a regular Christian church go'er to be a proper President? Are you saying that as a "born again Christian" President, that Bush was mandated to use his Christian faith when making national and international decisions?
I want to share with you an opinion piece by New York Times writer
David Brooks titled "A Matter of Faith."
This article is providing advice to Mr. Kerry and is very elucidating. In essence the writer agrees with Gazpacho's and Bill's premise, that religion does matter in America.

Quote:
A Matter of Faith
By DAVID BROOKS



When Bill Clinton was 8, he started taking himself to church. When he was
10, he publicly committed himself to Jesus. As a boy, he begged his Sunday
school teacher to take him to see Billy Graham. And as anybody watching his
book rollout knows, he still exudes religiosity. He gave Dan Rather a tour
of his Little Rock church, and talked about praying in good times and bad.

More than any other leading Democrat, Bill Clinton understands the role
religion actually plays in modern politics. He knows Americans want to be
able to see their leaders' faith. A recent Pew survey showed that for every
American who thinks politicians should talk less about religion, there are
two Americans who believe politicians should talk more.

And Clinton seems to understand, as many Democrats do not, that a
politician's faith isn't just about litmus test issues like abortion or gay
marriage. Many people just want to know that their leader, like them, is in
the fellowship of believers. Their president doesn't have to be a saint, but
he does have to be a pilgrim. He does have to be engaged, as they are, in a
personal voyage toward God.

Clinton made this sort of faith-based connection, at least until he sullied
himself with the Lewinsky affair. He won the evangelical vote in 1992, and
won it again in 1996. He understood that if Democrats are not seen as
religious, they will be seen as secular Ivy League liberals, and they will
lose.

John Kerry doesn't seem to get this. Many of the people running the
Democratic Party don't get it either.

A recent Time magazine survey revealed that only 7 percent of Americans feel
that Kerry is a man of strong religious faith. That's a catastrophic
number. That number should be the first thing Kerry strategists think about
when they wake up in the morning and it should be the last thing on their
lips when they go to sleep at night. They should be doing everything they
can to change that perception, because unless more people get a sense of
Kerry's faith, they will feel no bond with him and they will be loath to
trust him with their vote.

Yet his campaign does nothing. Kerry talks about jobs one week and the
minimum wage the next, going about his wonky way, each day as secular as the
last.

It's mind-boggling. Can't the Democratic strategists read the data?
Religious involvement is a much, much more powerful predictor of how someone
will vote than income, education, gender or any other social and demographic
category save race.

Can't the Democratic strategists feel it in their bones how important this
is? After all, when you go out among the Democratic rank and file, you find
millions of Democrats who are just as religious as Republicans. It's mostly
in the land of Democratic elites that you are likely to find yourself among
religious illiterates.

But of course this is the problem. Forests have been felled so people could
publish articles and books on the religious right's influence on the
Republican Party. But as the Baruch College political scientists Louis Bolce
and Gerald De Maio have suggested, the real political story of the past
decade has been the growing size and cohesion of the secular left, and its
growing influence on the Democratic Party.

According to the American Religious Identification Survey, the number of
Americans with no religious affiliation has more than doubled since 1990.
There is now a surging but unself-conscious power bloc within the Democratic
Party.

Like the religious right in the Republican Party, the members of the secular
left are interested primarily in social issues. What unites them more than
anything else is a strong antipathy to pro-lifers and fundamentalists. While
75 percent of Americans feel little or no hostility to fundamentalists,
people in this group are far more hostile to them than to other traditional
Democratic bête noires, the rich or big business. They don't like to see
their politicians meddling with religion in any way.

Just as Republicans have to appeal to religious conservatives but move
beyond them, Democrats have to appeal to the secular left but also build a
bridge to religious moderates. Bill Clinton did this. John Kerry hasn't. If
you want to know why Kerry is still roughly even with Bush in the polls,
even though Bush has had the worst year of any president since Nixon in 1973
or L.B.J. in 1968, this is one big reason.



Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

We know the result, Kerry lost. Lost because the evangelicals that voted for Mr. Clinton voted for Mr. Bush.
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#80325 - 12/16/05 08:45 AM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Great article Booklady,

You humble me by coming up with references to support my opinions. :o

I like the part about not expecting our presidents to be saints, only engaged. To paraphrase this, I think we all need to see our president committed to something not self-serving. And that's exactly not what we are seeing from the other side. The only commitment they have, and I have to admire their ambition, is to their party. This blantant continual barrage of self-serving opposition to the current administration is not attractive. As a matter of fact, it's frightening.

Personally, I can't imagine being so cynical and hate-filled about our system as to want to elect an amoral nihilistic elitist like Mr. Heinz, but, he didn't do too bad this last election. Hopefully in the next election, "God will help us."
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#80326 - 12/16/05 11:31 AM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Bill from NYC Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 657
Loc: New York City
I was so nice to read this in New York Times today!

Quote:
WASHINGTON, Dec. 15 - Months after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity without the court-approved warrants ordinarily required for domestic spying, according to government officials.
Why not the FBI? Maybe because the FBI would have to obey the laws of this country and NSA does not. NSA is not supposed to be involved in anything within the US.

Nixon had his plumbers and GB has his Republican Congress that will just sweep this under the rug. I would like to hear the GB supports tell me this is ok.

You think GW will run for a third term for President? It seems he can disregard the constitution and do it!

Bill
_________________________
William Bert Photography

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#80327 - 12/16/05 11:48 AM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
No argument from me Bill,

If you want to criticize President Bush for something like this, you and I are holding hands. I can't stand the Homeland Stupidity measures. Their the epitome of how things get screwed up when the government runs things. The people I disagree with are the ones who want the government to control even more things in our lives like health care.

Totally agree with you Bill. I don't know if he's really involved in this, since the article is from the media? but if he is, he just trashed our constitutional rights. "He who gives up his rights for security loses both."
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#80328 - 12/16/05 12:26 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Bill from NYC Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 657
Loc: New York City
Quote:
I don't know if he's really involved in this, since the article is from the media? but if he is, he just trashed our constitutional rights.
Here is more from the New York Time article

The White House asked The New York Times not to publish this article, arguing that it could jeopardize continuing investigations and alert would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny. After meeting with senior administration officials to hear their concerns, the newspaper delayed publication for a year to conduct additional reporting. Some information that administration officials argued could be useful to terrorists has been omitted.

The White House asked not to have it published? You can read it for yourselfs. I think more Americans would be concerned about spying on Americans.
New York Times article "Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts"

Bill
_________________________
William Bert Photography

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#80329 - 12/16/05 12:34 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Talking about infringement of individual liberty!
No argument from me either, Bill!
By the way, Congressional leaders knew about this too!

The Chicago Tribune carries a similar article.
Quote:
Bush said to have secretly lifted some spying limits after 9/11

By James Risen and Eric Lichtblau
New York Times News Service
Published December 16, 2005
...
The officials said the administration had briefed congressional leaders about the program and notified the judge in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the secret Washington court that deals with national security issues.

After 9/11 short shrift was given to our civil liberties because of the fear of another attack. Look at the Patriot Act.

Quote:
Several officials said the eavesdropping program had helped uncover a plot by Iyman Faris, an Ohio trucker and naturalized citizen who pleaded guilty in 2003 to supporting Al Qaeda by planning to bring down the Brooklyn Bridge with blowtorches. But the officials said most people targeted for NSA monitoring have never been charged with a crime.

What the National Security Agency calls a "special collection program" began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, as it looked for new tools to attack terrorism. The program accelerated in early 2002 after the Central Intelligence Agency started capturing top Al Qaeda operatives overseas, including Abu Zubaydah, who was arrested in Pakistan in March 2002.

In that same year, the agency began conducting some warrantless eavesdropping on people in the United States who are linked, even if indirectly, to suspected terrorists through a chain of phone numbers and e-mail addresses, according to several officials who know of the operation. Under the special program, the agency monitors their international communications, the officials said. The agency, for example, can target phone calls from someone in New York to Afghanistan.

Warrants are still required for eavesdropping on entirely domestic-to-domestic communications, those officials say, meaning that calls from that New Yorker to California could not be monitored without first going to the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Court....

days after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York and the Pentagon, John Yoo, a former official in the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, wrote an internal memo arguing that the government might use "electronic surveillance techniques and equipment that are more powerful and sophisticated than those available to law enforcement agencies in order to intercept telephonic communications and observe the movement of persons but without obtaining warrants for such uses."

Yoo noted that while such actions could raise constitutional issues, in the face of devastating terrorist attacks "the government may be justified in taking measures which in less troubled conditions could be seen as infringements of individual liberties."
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#80330 - 12/16/05 12:43 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
fulano Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 138
Loc: califas
BookLady,Thanks for the dissertation concerning your previous comments,
"I know it's unacceptable among secular circles, I prefer to have a christian president than an amoral one"
and "you seem threatened by President Bush's and president Carters(?) christian beliefs" (paraphrase).
First of all I have to disagree that people that believe in secularism prefer an amoral one to a christian president. Again, most of our Presidents have professed a christian faith and until recently, people "usually" voted for our Presidents based on issues that are more secular in nature like economics and jobs and taxes and international in scope. The difference has been that in the past a Presidents christian faith has been a non issue.
The true teachings of "Jesus Christ" and the "New Testament" deal with love of one's fellow human beings, tolerance and forgivness, redemption, and thats fine with me as a basis for one's moral and ethical modus operandi, I wish Bush and his "Fundamentalist's" would follow these mainstream Christian principles more often.

"Amorality", the concept of having no concept of right or wrong"
No thanks! that is not for me and I consider myself a strong "Secularist" in principle.
So Booklady I again state that your statements were based on faulty assumptions.
"Secularism" (from wikpedia)
The idea that religion should "not interfere" with or be integrated into the public affairs of society. It is often associated with the "age of enlightenment" in Europe and plays a major role in Western Society.
The principles of "separation of church and state"
draw heavily on Secularism.
Yea, that's the way I feel, and hopefully still most citizens of this country do also.
Do I feel threatened by Bush's "Fundamental Christian" belief system? Seguro que si! especially in view of his past, and present irrational behavior, and the "Religious Rights" push to eliminate the principle of separation of church and state, and freedom from religion that this country, and most of the modern,secular based(from the age of enlightenment!!) societys around the world have come view as a given.

The very fact that we (Secularist's) here in the US have to constantly battle with the "Christian Fundamentalist Right" to prevent them from dragging us back into the "Dark Ages" with their concept of "Christian values" for all like "prayer in gov't institutions", attack on "womens rights" "ban on stem cell research and other science based teachings in schools".etc; etc;
And most frightening of all a "Christian Fundamentalist President" dragging us all into a modern day religious "crusade" he and his "Faustian advisors" have decided upon(based on fiction).
Again from wikpedia. (And man is this right on!)
"Most major religions accept the primacy of the rules of a secular democratic society.
However, fundamentalism opposes secularism.
The two largest religious fundamentalist groups in the world are "Fundamentalist Christians", and "Fundamentalist Islam".
So again Booklady, as you were refering to President George Bush who is a professed "Fundamentalist Christian" when making your statements I can answer with certainty, Yes I feel threatened!, and you should too!

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#80331 - 12/16/05 12:45 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Oops Bill,

Looks like our/your enemy is our government more so than President Bush. Why am I not surprised? wink

You ever get the feeling that the New York Times is run by the dems? Don't you get it Bill? If Clinton had done the same thing concerning the NSA, he would be touted for his remarkable insight and care for our security. But since it was President Bush.... Aren't you tired of this? I certainly am.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#80332 - 12/16/05 01:41 PM Re: Maybe God can help us!!
Bill from NYC Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 657
Loc: New York City
Quote:
You ever get the feeling that the New York Times is run by the dems? Don't you get it Bill? If Clinton had done the same thing concerning the NSA, he would be touted for his remarkable insight and care for our security. But since it was President Bush.... Aren't you tired of this? I certainly am.
I am talking for myself, how I personally feel about using agency that has been setup to gather foreign intelligence, then it is being used within the borders of the US. That is because the agency we already have do this legally within the US border, the FBI, has rules that they have to follow, are answerable to people and the US courts.

Using the NSA within the US borders, I believe is a way to skirt the constitution and the bill of rights. What is next we arrest fellow Americans, send them oversea to a prison were the have no rights under the constitution because they are in a prison overseas where US laws does not applied? Keep this stuff up it will not be long before we start arresting and executing Americans in foreign prisons.

I would not care which President is in office. This kind of actions that skirt the constitution is were I draw the line. Too bad there is no one in the White House that feels like I do on this issue.

Bill
_________________________
William Bert Photography

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