Fulano, once again, we cross posted. I was adding similar material about Hersh and JFK, while you were posting.

Yes, I do not trust Sy Hersh, since his double dealing with JFK. However, as Wolf has said Hersh is not the only one who has noted that President Bush and his neo-conservative aides like Perle and Wolfowitz are insisting in building a democracy in Iraq.

I believed Bush when he said that this was a long war, not because of my belief in his world view, but because I believe that there is a Jihad against the West, specifically the United States.
Writer Karen Armstrong, a former Catholic nun now a Buddist, fairly much convinced me of this in her books.

Some say that GWB is quixotic in his belief of making democracy work in Iraq. I don't know.

All I know is that Saddam Hussein should have been imprissoned long ago, right after the Kuwaiti War. Had he been imprissoned then, we would not have this war. I blame Bush Sr. for not having the balls to complete the mission. Just as I blame Carter, Reagan, Bush and Clinton, for their administration's role in this tragedy.

That the tragedy stems from the Cold War, is no less a tragedy. President Carter began funding Osama bin Laden and the Talibans in Afghanistan, follwed by Reagan, who also assisted the Baathist party leader, Hussein, because of the Soviet-Irani wish to control the oil fields. Reagan did nothing to stop the Jihadists. Bush Sr.and the U.N should have tried and imprissoned Hussein, but did not.

Clinton, who did not have the Cold War as an excuse, allowed Al Qaeda to attack us three times, and did nothing. further, in order to save money he cut back the military and the CIA, his administration fairly much dismanteled the CIA because there was no Cold War anymore!

That leaves Bush, who some believe is the least capable of all of the above presidents. Yet, he understands that this is truly a war with a people who believe that the West is evil and must be eliminated, no matter how long it takes!

Where does this leave us? The irony is tragic.

Bill (from NYC) writes: Amen to that! But are you among those who qualify as 'People of Faith?' I thought I was but find I am not. Non-Christians (Jews & Muslims) are excluded, as are some Christian Denominations. 'Merry Christmas' is not Politically Correct these days! It's 'Happy Holidays!' If you've seen the Honda ad on TV you saw a diverse group of carolers singing 'Happy Holidays.' Other groups, like one here in Philadelphia, are changing the lyrics of traditional Christmas Carols to non-sectarian ones.
BTW
Evidently GWB's only troop withdrawal plan for Iraq is for Soldiers and Marines to return 10-at-a-time, in flag draped caskets. That's all we have seen so far; and I'm sick of it!!

I too am upset about seeing these body bags night after night. How often do we need to hear there are no WMD...it was Bin Laden not Sadaam responsible for 9/11? We were mislead and now we are in so deep, I don't know how anything good can come out of it. The war also has unfortunately taken on some sort of religious connotation....US AGAINST THEM. This is probably the most dangerous aspect of all. I see no end to a religious war....just thousands of years full of violence. We continue to alienate ourselves from our allies and make more enemies each day. Yes, Sadaam was a horrible brutal dicatator....but what about the rest of the horrible brutal dictators of the World? We can't police the entire World nonetheless even win this one war.

Look how divided the Country has suddenly become. Does anyone remember when Republicans and Democrats didn't despise one another? A time when you would have considered either party on election day? When did Democrats get labeled immoral and Republicans religious fanatics? Ok Bill didn't keep his pants zipped....this isn't the type of behavior that most Democratics would partake in. And there are most certainly some Republicans who don't view God as approving this war.

The debate goes on and on. There is plenty of dirt to go around. But this is what I personally know....my best friend refuses to come to this Country again to pay me a visit. He refuses to invest a single Euro in our economy and has basically boycotted us. I know that some of you say "good riddens". But this is something that matters a great deal to me....something that makes me think....we are on the wrong path. I think we can do better....I know we will.

It is scary to see our important holidays being turn into commercial holidays. What is next, replace the importance of Easter to the Christian faith with the resurrection of the Easter Bunny? Replace Christmas cards with Happy Holiday cards. If I ever offend a person by sending them a Christmas card they should throw it out! They are intolerant if the complain to me about it.

Personally I see those individuals that complain about the religious aspects of our holidays are the ones that are intolerant with people with different points of view. Then they use the courts to impose their will.

Bill

Good posts everyone,

I even enjoyed your posts Fulano.

But as far as the Bush administration being incompetent? Well, they aren't totally competent, that's for sure. But so much better than the previous administration who did absolutemente nada. I consider anyone who tries infinitely better than someone who can't find his butt with both hands. So no, this administration is far from totally incompetent.

To answer Wolf's question, no, can't say that I know whether or not President Bush shared with someone else that God told him to attack Iraq. Aren't you asking me to prove a negative? Sorry, don't work that way. I was just amazed at how flimsy the proof is that the president actually said this and how threatened people would be by it if he had. The media seems real inventive these days, so I tend not to believe anything coming from them, particularly, against our President.

Let's see. It's gone from alcohalism, to cocaine use, to lying about WMD, to draft-dodging, to proselytizing. What next? Ah wait, I just had a revelation! The media hasn't yet accused him of spousal abuse or kiddy porn. That must be next on the horizon.

Thanks Booklady for your comments, but I'm puzzled. Do you agree that we may have a bunch of money driven incompetents led by a president who espouses a fundamentalist christian faith? If you take our "born again" President at his word then how can we possibly ever end this strife with the other Moslem "true believers"?
Since you are a fan of "Karen Armstrong" the ex nun and wonderful author then how can you support one fundamentalist religious fanatic over another? According to Armstrong, and I agree,

"Fundamentalists are not friends of democracy and that includes your fundamentalist's in the US"

Are we here in the US expected to support one group of wackos just because they are our wackos?
I personally believe that there are people of good faith, intelligence and moderation in all groups of people, and that as a world power it is our task to support a peaceful diplomatic effort to solve issues instead of immediately going to war and let the world be damned if they don't like it.
Another quote from you Booklady I found interesting at this juncture in history.

"All I know is that Saddam Hussien should have been imprisoned long ago right after the Kuwaiti War. Had he been imprisoned then we would not have this war. I blame bush Sr. for not having the balls to complete the mission."

You know Booklady I used to feel that way also but it's curious, now in retrospect I wonder if old Bush Sr. wasn't a smart old fox. Look at the mess we are in now! During the reign's of Bush Sr. and Clinton, Saddam was essentially powerless, being monitored and controlled by the world body, he had an embargo and "no fly zone" situation that prevented him from any agressions. It's now obvious and been documented over and over that there was no Al Qaeda connection, no WMD's, no terrorists attacks on us (like there is now!)
What a mess we are in and speaking of "Jihads" I wonder sometimes, are we part of a "Jihad" against the Moslems? A modern day christian crusade run by a "fundamentalist born again" US President? If so when does the "Inquisition begin"?

Gazpacho,
Excellent post, by the way, is this the quote by George S. Patton that you are seeking?
"Don't be a fool and die for your country. Let the other son of a b****h die for his."

fulano,
You seem "threatened" by the fact that people like Presidents Carter and George W. Bush are so openly Christian.

I have great respect for both President Carter and President Bush for their openly expressing their Christian beliefs while in the presidency. I commend them for having the courage to make public their religious convictions.

I know it is unacceptable among secular circles but, I prefer to have a Christian president than an amoral one.

Doña Carmen (aka Booklady) writes: Christian?? How about a President who panders to the Religious 'Right' as a base for his so called public support?? And the Jerry Falwells and other Tele-Evangelists who support him (George W. Bush, that is). You say you prefer to have a " Christian President than an amoral one." I share your belief; but how can you call a President who took the U.S. to war based on a pack of lies and bogus intelligence and sent more than 2,100 U.S. military people to die for his vanity a Christian?? Real Christians don't do things like that!

If your President acted according to Christian principles your statement might be valid. But he does not!

Eddie,
I completely concur with your post, but I have to ask you: how many conservatives do you know that actually pay any attention to these raving fools known as tele-evangelists?
GWB would do well to distance himself from them. I do remember that during the 2000 elections, he gave an appearance at Bob Jones University (now there's a fine example of higher learning), a hotbed of un-Christian thought and anti-semitism.
At any rate, nobody should give any time or attention to these tele-evangelist neanderthals who call themselves Christians. Nobody I know does.

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

Well Eddie, I will have to respectfully disagree with you!

You ask: If you are referring to GW, then that is up to the Almighty to decide, don’t you think, Eddie? He claims he is an Evangelical “Born-Again” Christian. I don’t doubt him. I am a Roman Catholic and I see the Evangelical Christians as my Brothers and Sisters in Christ! Are we not Christians because we believe that we are sinful and in need of redemption?

Let me ask you a question:
Are people of faith lepers that their President should ignore them?

You and others on this Board describe the Religious Right as lepers, why I ask you? Because they have, moral values that differ from mainstream religious and the secular left?

Well these folks are his constituency, Eddie. In the last election, the Evangelicals “born Again” Christians voted for this man, as well as many practicing Catholics, I might add, they were that extra 3.5 million that gave him the election.

Billy Graham supported Nixon; the Reverend Jackson supported Bill Clinton, and, your point being?
Yes, if I had a choice, I would always prefer a Christian president to an amoral one.
There you go!!
No contradiction here. I am still not convinced that Bush, Cheney, Powell, and a host of Democratic and Republican leaders lied. I believe that they believed then that there was a threat to our security.

I am among those Americans willing to give the President the benefit of the doubt that at the time he made this onerous decision he was telling the truth. I believe that the intelligence was conflicting and there was no way to be sure if WMD were in Iraq or not.

I am sure you read about the Oil for Food scandal. I assign some blame for this tragedy to the U.N. for being a bunch of spineless profiteers and I attribute some of the blame to Saddam Hussein himself for being so successful in scaring the pants out of the Iranians that he HAD WMD! Why all the drama of tossing out the U.N. inspectors? Why did Hussein move materials around, as Hans Blix described unless he really had WMD? Why did he refuse to account for the missing chemical weapons?

What did we know about Saddam Hussein?

We knew that as early as the 1990’s, Iraq had WMD in the form of chemical and biological weapons, which he and used on the Kurds. The Israeli’s blew up Saddam Hussein’s nuclear weapon system, so we knew he had the intelligent scientist to rebuild. He attacked Kuwait, because he defaulted on the loans that they lent him to fight the war with Iran. Saddam is a well-documented liar. All intelligence agencies in the West, journalists and many world leaders believed Iraq had WMD!

What we did not know then was that the U.N. war profiteers were giving him tons of money for the oil, which he used to pay known Palestinian terrorists, who were affiliated to Al-Qaeda, $25,000 each time they were willing to blow themselves up killing Jews in Israel. A destabilizing force, if there was ever one.

As I said in my previous post, a tragedy all around.

Your favorite Leper,
Doña Carmen