Booklady,

No doubt about it. The hard line Muslims know that they can get away with just about anything because nobody is prepared to deal with them harshly. For some reason people say its just "civil disobedience," when in fact its the beginning of a revolution that pits Islam against the Infidels of the world.

The more damage they cause, and the more successful these early insurrections are, the more we'll see them, and the worse they'll get, because they are bringing converts into the fold constantly.

I don't think Europeans, or Americans for that matter, really realize the scope of what this movement is. Since most of us don't react as religious zealots, its hard to believe others will. Yet, that's exactly what we're seeing Jihad is a holy war, not a way of asking for respect. It will continue, and their movement will grow stronger, unless its crushed.

Wolf

Wolf,
As usually you are right on the button. I truly wish this was merely an immigration problem. But it is more than that.

The behavior is not like a normal riot where everything is chaotic. These youths are too well coordinated. Someone or some organization is orchestrating this effort.

What I can't understand is why Chirac took so long to respond.

Bookie

Although I understand that you are scared, terrorism and the fear of its acceleration makes us all scared, it just makes me wonder on what basis people here feel they are experts on Islamic culture, especially in Europe, to the extent that they can make statements like

"Now, if you think that the average Muslim is going to back your government in support against these extremists, you're so far off base that you haven't got a clue as to where the future is headed. The best they will do is "stay out of it," and give you lip service as to how they are against what's happening, but none of them will turn the trouble makers in to the law"

With all due respect Wolf, and I mean it, what is your expertise in the field based on? Although I think the fear of some of these young people turning to extremist movements is real (the same happens here with white, frustrated and undereducated young men - they turn to extreme rightist neo nazi movements) I'm not at all afraid of the Muslim community as a whole and I'm 100% sure that most of them would "turn the trouble makers in to the law". Why? Because these are people that I live among. Who I go take a coffee with in the university cafeteria, volunteer with at the refugee center and call when I need to talk to someone. It's just hard to be as scared as you seem to think I should be.

Here is an article written by D. Attias, the director of the department of French at the University of Oulu, a French-Moroccan Jew that has now lived here for 25 years. I quickly translated it for you and my translation probably sucks but I just thought that a view from the inside would be appropriate here.

The costly bill of French inequality

When the French mining- car- and construction industries were experiencing their worst labor shortage in a country torn apart by war, in the 50's and 60's representatives of these industries went to North African and Sub Saharan rural villages to recruit cheap, illiterate and non French speaking labor.

France got rich, but at the same time, a big marginalized poor class was formed and grew up in the slums. Next to my university there was, still in the 70's, a huge district that more resembled a Rio de Janeiro favela or an African dump site. It was hard to imagine that Champs-Elysée was just a half an hour train ride away.

The Algerian born writer, sociologist and current French Equality and Integration Secretary of State describes his childhood in the slums of Lyon in his novels. Azouz Begag, just like thousands of other young immigrants far too seldom mentioned in this context, studied hard and found his place in society.

But Begag also tells about the atmosphere of the schools and society. The raw environment made many resort to the agrarian patriarchal traditions of their country of birth. Young people that didn't grow up in families that valued education soon fell behind at school and teased young Begag, who wanted to study. In their eyes he was a traitor, who rubbed shoulders with Christian and Jewish enemies. An educated Arab was no longer an Arab.

Although the structure of the economy has gone through a big upheaval due to the technological revolution, requiring more and more education and specific knowledge, only a fraction of these French people with an immigrant background had the chance to educate themselves. We have to remember that the French education system is very inequal. For example when I studied at university, only 10% of all students came from working class families. And the figure remains the same in 2005!

The school system favors those children and young people that have gotten versatile intellectual stimuli and possibilities from their immediate surroundings. We can understand how the problems of immigrant children are even bigger, especially as their language is poor and vocabulary limited as all available research shows us.

In Finland, anyone has the possibility to study encouraged by society. In France, available financial help is nearly inexistent. Additionally, vocational education is not highly valued. The schools and universities don't appreciate cooperation with companies. Comparisons between Germany and France show that the French school system produces an enormous amount of young people who barely know how to read and write. The educational programs are badly adapted to the current needs of the labor market.

Just like in other parts of the world, but worse, the economic recession has been hard on France and hardened the attitudes of marginalized youth. News brodcasts show who are the ones that commit these ruthless acts of violence: the same young macho kids that terrorize girls, their own parents and working Muslims.

Furthermore, these people are so "Frenchized" that they have adopted the manners of direct action of different professional groups. In France reform is a swearword, and in this conservative country no progress is ever made without riots and disorder.

Everything that has happened in France during the past few days, was predictable since 1981, when the first rebellions begun in different suburbs. Both the left and the conservative governments have given only empty promises. Members of government made dozens of visit to the suburbs, surrounded by TV cameras, pretending to discuss with the youth of these suburbs. Chirac won the elections in 1995 because he held sharp speeches on the new poor classes and promised to deal with the problem.

In the near future we have to fear how the already strong far right will benefit from this situation and what will be the position of millions of hard working Muslims. But due to its tragic history, France is a country that has always survived the storms, ending up stronger than before.

I can also predict that because this little group of Muslim hooligans has made great damage, the big, silent Muslim masses will permanently and clearly step forward and dissociate themselves from those dark perceptions of Islam that there is no room for in the modern world.

Belatedly the French are bringing in curfew measures to control the rioting. Although there's only been 1 death reported so far (contrast with the 15,000 annual murder rate in Washington) I hope the situation is quickly brought under control. If some of the more pessimistic posters are correct, then an organized network of insurrectionists could kill thousands with ease. Let's hope wiser heads prevail and the situation calms. I still feel there is an economic answer to this problem in France - If you own a shop or have a profession, you don't riot. I suspect most of those rioting feel excluded from society.
fully agree with what Pia said. In the UK I live amongst people from Islamic backgrounds. Since they have jobs (pharmacists or small business owners or even just factory workers) they show no inclination of criminal intentions. Even those who are temporarily unemployed don't do this - they tend to take courses etc. It's normally a small percentage of those without hope who resort to criminality.

You are really naive if you think those without hope resort to criminal activity.

People that have everything going for them can still become a terrorist. Most of the terrorist involved in 9/11 were from the middle class in Saudi Arabia. The terrorist involved in the first attack on the World Trade Center, were working middle class Arabs living and working in America. The chemist who helped build the chemical bombs used in the attacked had a high paying job.

Where the Arab terrorist involved in the London Bombing were they from the poor and uneducated in the British underclass?

I think if were to ask your Islamic background friends what they really think of bin Laden, some of them think of him as a hero.

There is more to the riots in France than in-equality of French society. Are these rioters scum, they certainly are! No political correctness for me on this issue. Who owns the cars and property are they burning? It is their neighbors that live under conditions they do.
Now they those neighbors worst off than before.

Bill

Pia,

What do I know? Why do I consider myself an expert in this area? Well, to start with, I probably do understand it more than the average European who is burying their head in the sand, because I realized it was coming, and said it was for years. But, not because I figured this out on my own. I had help arriving at this point.

As for my "sources," I have a lot of Muslim friends, and they have stated that Europeans are fools who think they can "negotiate" with radicals when they have no intent of backing off even after appeasement. In fact they fear what's happening in Europe because its fast becoming a model as to what could happen here, and they don't want to be caught up in a situation where hardline Muslims run the show here from Mosques.

I also studied information about the subject, and what's happening within nations that the Muslims have taken control.

I didn't make it a "steady diet" of buying into this peaceful approach that Europeans seem to offer so smuggly to the world, as if they found a panacea of peace that nobody has ever found. I dealt with information from both sides of the issue so I could see it clearly, without it being distorted.

But you go right ahead and bury your head in the sand, and find ways to appease the hardliners, and someday, when they pull the same crap in Finland, don't bother to whine about it, because nobody will care. Either you're part of the solution to this problem, or you're aiding it. There is no "middle ground" where anyone can stand, because the militants will take that away from you eventually.

As for the Fatwas issued against this violence, understand its nothing more than rhetoric and has less teeth than the UN saying; "Shame on you!"

Wolf

I am not a smug European with a smug attitude towards violence. I am from Ireland where I've seen how violence is nurtured and used. I have seen how disenchanted young men are easily lured into the romantacism and heroism of violence. The current violence in France could be exploited by Islamic radicals. I'm not so innocent as to think otherwise. But as yet, the riots do not have this dimension, just as race riots which have ocurred in the UK or the US did not have a real revolutionary basis. People are angry, yes. But in the case of the UKor US where this has happened before, those raging through the streets were not articulating marxist or class-based rebellion. They were breaking things.
I, for one, do not believe that those burning cars and even people have a radical Islamic agenda. That's not to say this agenda won't insinuate itself into their actions in the future, which is the fear of our US friends on this board. But it's premature, I think, to see this as anything other than an outbreak of rage against the status quo.

Wolf,

Isn't it pitiful? I guess liberals in Europe are of the same as ilk as liberals here. If a person just declares that they have the "intention" of changing their behavior, then, abracabadra and presto , that makes them good people. Even morally superior people. A murderer with tears in his eyes is greater to them than Jesus.

But if a person tries to prevent another from repeating thier atrocious behavior, they're nothing but a criminal.

Bad white Americans. Imprison and torture terrorist. And in the face of such meaningful fatwas. Why, we Europeans are kinder and gentler. We understand these people better because of our superior knowledge of foreign affairs. Well, I ain't buying such bilge.

If there's one thing that's becoming obvious from these riots, it's that the French obviously counted on their oil for food scheme to help finance their progressive social programs. When their evilly gotten gains dried up, someone removed the cork from the champagne bottle. What a mess, no matter what the reason. Good luck with the fatwa.

I don't know how to contribute meaningful posts to this thread any longer. All I'm getting from certain quarters is a certain glee from some about what I consider a grave problem. I would be quite happy to debate the subject with someone whose opinions are different from mine, someone with a different world view. I am aware of the problems of Islamic radicalism and I lived next to Atocha and knew people on the attacked trains on March 11.
Of course I don't have all the answers and of course Europeans can't lecture the world on how to get things right (we have supplied two world wars, after all!). But I don't feel we have even room for debate when some posters see the problem as simply an us-versus-them issue, as a clash of culture and religion, as a shoot-em-up scenario.
I don't think the situation is apocalyptic and I think it can be resolved. I think it's unfortunate and tragic. But I think that when we address the underlying causes, and we must, we will be a stronger and more just society.

Wolf, I understand that you see a threat in the possibility of radical movements spreading in Europe. So do I, apparently barry, and I would guess filbert does, too.

Now what I was asking was on what grounds you can say that the AVERAGE Muslim (your exact words, my emphasis) would always, in the end, protect the extremist criminals. Would your American Muslim friends? If not, how are they different from mine?

Mr. New York's comment "I think if were to ask your Islamic background friends what they really think of bin Laden, some of them think of him as a hero" doesn't even deserve a comment. Listen to yourself. Nobody even said that terrorists always are undereducated or underclass. As I recall we were talking about the riots in France? And I'd suggest you go there and count the higher middle class people burning schools and shooting at fire fighters.

As barry said, the situation could be exploited by radicals and therefore it is serious. But you are already talking like the kids involved in the riots would be 5 seconds from flying a plane into your house.

Like barry, I don't know what to write any longer. The malicious delight I see in some of your posts really makes me unsure of who it is I should be scared of.