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#80099 - 11/05/05 12:23 PM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Pia,

While Atahualpa's Avenging Ghost is a little vitriolic, he makes many good points.

I don't think he really believes there is a chance of Europe being dominated by the Arab culture, but he is as disgusted, as I am, at Europe's shamelessly prostrating itself before the face of Arab aggression. Some of us in the U.S. are getting a little impatient by Europe’s lack of conviction, or backbone about Arab aggression. Or anything else for that matter. We know your help would resolve this issue in a more timely manner, but your appeasement only makes the matter of terrorism worse.

And I guess that what he means as France blaming the U.S., it that he suspects, as I do, that sooner or later the media will portray these riots as being caused by the U.S.’s activities in Iraq. France, while no great asset, is a member of the free world and therefore, according to the Arab jihadist world, an ally of the U.S. and thus their sworn enemy.

As far as his opining over socialism, I suppose that he, as I, consider this the root of Europe’s inability in dealing with problems such as terrorism, or the flood of immigrants. As Finland will soom find out, if it hasn’t already, it’s easy to implement a cradle to grave policy, if you can reasonably predict the availability of resources for your people over the near future. If something unpredictable occurs though, such as the influx of too many immigrants, natural disasters, wars, etc. reality will convince you that a more aggressive capitalistic society is the answer.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#80100 - 11/05/05 02:14 PM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
Pia Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: Finland
Gazpacho, I don't see how what you wrote about welfare states and capitalism is in any way connected to the issue discussed here: at least I didn't understand that the topic was on how capitalism would be a better answer when there is a sudden "influx of immigrants". I think the problem is how to integrate these immigrants into society and that doesn't happen automatically. In any system.

It is true that there is increased tensions between the western world and some radical fundamentalist Muslim groups and it doesn't get better with wars going on that are seemingly between those two groups, but I still very much doubt that anyone would blame the US for problems in France.

I, personally, don't believe the answer is getting guns and putting up prison camps where suspected terrorists or are tortured. Especially in times like this I think it's more important than ever not to make exceptions to what we believe is right. In the end I think that's what the terrorists want: for us to start acting against our own believes and ideals. And start fighting not only against them, but also against each other.

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#80101 - 11/05/05 02:45 PM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
Atahualpa's Avenging Ghost Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Chicago, USA
Capitalism creates economic growth and generates wealth. New wealth creates new investment capital that fuels new business and creates new jobs for new job seekers. Capital investment allows for the creation of economic opportunity for new immigrants and their offspring. New immigrants with new economic opportunities quickly develop a stake in the promotion and stable growth of the new society they live in. Economic freedom promotes political participation at all levels. THAT is how a society integrates newcomers from a wide variety of foriegn lands with vastly different social and religious customs. That is how we do it in the USA. And Europe sneers at this as 'cowboy capitalism'.

And actually I do believe that Europe is in danger of being dominated by Arab culture. Every generation there are fewer and fewer Europeans and more and more ethnic muslims from Arabia, Turkey and North Africa. Do the math. And I'm not the only one who thinks that way. Just ask the "rioting youths" of Paris, and now a half-dozen other French cities.

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#80102 - 11/05/05 03:33 PM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
barry Offline
Member

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 347
Loc: sóller, mallorca, spain
Last time I checked, France was still a capitalist country. That aside, I also fail to see what your discourse has to do with the issue at hand. The US, for all its merits - and there are many - is also a society with deep rifts, along ethnic and class lines. Both France and the US, and any western society, for that matter, have capitalist systems, which, while creating wealth also leave others behind. In your scheme of things they might deserve to have been left behind having not taken the opportunities capitalism presented them. But they're still left behind. Now back to the issue - what then should a society do with this class? It's clear France as a society, a capitalist society I hasten to remind you, has had a confused social policy, creating areas which are ethnically uniform and where there's chronic unemployment. It's a volitile mix.
But there's also a volitile mix on the part of some observers. They're throwing the threat of an Arab takeover, confused ideas of etnicity (can ethnic Muslims exist?) and what constitutes Arab culture, what constitutes being a European (Arabs can be European, many Turks are, in fact, European) into pot and allowing it to simmer.

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#80103 - 11/05/05 05:44 PM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Thanks Atahualpa,

I certainly can't add to your first paragraph.

As to those who ask what does my post add to the thread, I was merely expanded upon the original posters ideas, so that's what.

Oh yeah, more negatives about capitalism. It leaves people behind, not like good ol' socialism. rolleyes That let's people starve to death. laugh Much kinder. People it's not the job of government to make everyone equal. If it was, why do the immigrants that flood into Europe feel disaffected. Obviously, it just don't work. But keep trying. I'm sure someone will sucker us tax payers here in the U.S. to foot the bill somehow.

And Pia,

For goodness sakes, we are doing what is right. We are trying to create a world where people are free to seek thier own way of life, free from the violence of terrorism. Sure,Finland hasn't been attacked yet so you can afford to ride a high horse, but unless someone draws a line, you better start reading your Koran and learning Arabic. Meanwhile, the U.S. gets to do the dirty work and isolate psychopaths that murder the innocent. Yeah, so much for leaving people behind. Thanks a lot.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#80104 - 11/05/05 06:05 PM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
Pia Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/05
Posts: 134
Loc: Finland
Here we go again. I was just saying that what we believe in, which should be democracy and human rights, should never be compromised in the fight for securing them. This would be acting against our own believes and proving ourselves wrong. As for the rest, I completely agree with barry.

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#80105 - 11/05/05 06:26 PM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Gazpacho, excellent posts.

Pia, you alluded to my mentioning not blaming the U.S., this is in reference to a thread a few years ago.

This article may best explains my remark:
Quote:


New York Sun
November 4, 2005
Intifada in France

If President Chirac thought he was going to gain peace with the Muslim community in France by taking an appeasement line in the Iraq war, it certainly looks like he miscalculated. Today the streets of the French capital are looking more like Ramallah and less like the advanced, sophisticated, gay Paree image Monsieur Chirac likes to portray to the world, and the story, which is just starting to grip the world's attention, is full of ironies. One is tempted to suggest that Prime Minister Sharon send a note cautioning Monsieur Chirac about cycles of violence.

Back in the 1990s, the French sneered at America for the Los Angeles riots. As the Chicago Sun-Times reported in 1992: "the consensus of French pundits is that something on the scale of the Los Angeles riots could not happen here, mainly because France is a more humane, less racist place with a much stronger commitment to social welfare programs." President Mitterrand, the Washington Post reported in 1992, blamed the riots on the "conservative society" that Presidents Reagan and Bush had created and said France is different because it "is the country where the level of social protection is the highest in the world."

How the times have changed. Muslims in Paris's suburbs are out shooting at police and firefighters, burning cars and buildings, and throwing rocks at commuter trains. Even children are out on the streets - it was reported that a 10-year-old was arrested. The trigger for the riots was the electrocution of two teenagers last Thursday, which the rioters say came following a police chase, a charge the police deny. But even if the charge by the rioters is true, that the police are culpable in the deaths of the two youths, the fact that such an incident would spark a riot is a sign of something deeper at work - no doubt France's failure to integrate its immigrant Muslim community.

It turns out that France's Muslim community lives in areas rampant with crime, poverty, and unemployment, much the fault of France's prized welfare system. There are those of us who spent part of the 1980s in Europe, supporting the idea, among others from the Reagan era, that immigration was a virtue for a country and that the racial or religious background of the immigrants did not matter. We maintain that view. But immigration into a country with a dirigiste economy is a recipe for trouble, which is why supporters of immigration into France have long warned of the need for liberalization.

Part of France's problem is that it has defaulted on those measures. The lack of labor market flexibility and other socialist policies have created unemployment at nearly 10%, most of which falls among immigrants. And part stems from the fact that France's estimated 5 million Muslims, out of a population of 60 million, are led by mostly foreign radical imams. Only belatedly has the French state started taking action, pressing for clerics to be taught in France. All this is compounded by the image France projects of itself to its Muslims, which one can surmise is the reason why Muslims see rioting as the solution to any grievance.

It's a barely kept secret that Mr. Chirac led the opposition to the Iraq war out of fear of how his Muslim population would react. This fear is a big part of why France portrays itself as America's counterweight and why it criticizes Israel at every turn and coddled the terrorist Yasser Arafat right up to his death. This doesn't elicit thanks from Muslim radicals in France. It turns out to project an image of weakness. Unsurprisingly when faced with some unhappiness they believe they can pressure the French state into submission.

A number of observers of the French scene have looked at population trends and suggested that France is on its way to becoming a Muslim country (one that would, let it be noted, be armed with hydrogen bombs). Some react to this by suggesting a halt to immigration and even expulsion. The better approach is to impose law and order, more speedily to reform the burdensome welfare state, and start integrating the Muslim community. France could also help itself by dispatching troops to help battle the radical Islamists in Iraq, thereby sending a message to Muslims at home and abroad that France is on the side of those Muslims, the majority no doubt, who want to live in peace.

_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#80106 - 11/05/05 10:19 PM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
Bill from NYC Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 657
Loc: New York City
Quote:
France could also help itself by dispatching troops to help battle the radical Islamists in Iraq, thereby sending a message to Muslims at home and abroad that France is on the side of those Muslims, the majority no doubt, who want to live in peace.
What? You know what will happen, the French people the one on the left wing political spectrum will riot in the streets.

Maybe the left in France will turn their edict that you can on work 35 hours to during a work. Maybe they should cut back on it and make 16 hours a person can work and give a job to those Arabs youths rioting in the streets. A job at Disneyland dressed as Goofy.

Sorry folks I do not feel sorry for minute to the French Government.

Bill
_________________________
William Bert Photography

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#80107 - 11/05/05 10:57 PM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
gazpacho Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 06/23/00
Posts: 797
Loc: Macomb, MI U.S.
Anyone opposed to letting the French "army" fight on the side of the radical Islamist? Think about it. This could all be over soon.
_________________________
"I swear -by my life and my love of it -that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine."

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#80108 - 11/06/05 08:15 AM Re: Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots
filbert Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 399
Loc: London
The riots seem very similar to those that occurred in Britain in the 80s, particularly since the riots have spread to different cities (copycat riots we called them in the UK). End of the day it's criminal behaviour. Take away all the young males between 15 and 25 and this wouldn't happen!! I suspect there are too many young males in France with limited opportunity and too much time on their hands. It may be that a majority of the rioters have an Algerian or Muslim background (those in the UK did not) but is, I feel incidental.
_________________________
An English Bookseller in Madrid

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