I think that GWB is FARTHER RIGHT than your average conservative. And if you consider him more moderate than you then... well.... Wow. Yikes.

Anyway, I'll leave my questions above to Pia regarding her "Questions to Conservatives" and wait for an answer.

Saludos, MadridMan

When it come to fiscal responsibility with this country's deficit, Clinton when he was in office was more conservative than GW on government spending. He is not a moderate, far from it. Look who he is putting on the Supreme Court. A moderate would at least nominate a women to replace a women. Think about this over 50% of the US population are women and there is going to be only one on the Supreme Court. Not a moderate decision in my opinion.

At look what he is doing, this country is at WAR! You would think it would be the smart moderate thing to do, keep the country together while fighting a war, is to nominate someone that does not become a decisive issue. No! He goes nominate someone that will that will split the country apart.

Look at his threaten veto on the amendment against using torture. He threatens to veto the bill and say the country does not torture. Well that is not right and he has never veto anything. He vetoes the bill, he is for the use of torture.

Bill

Hello Pia, so glad you liked the article.

You've asked me interesting questions. Ones which I don't feel academically competent to answer to a certainty, but I can give you my humble opinion as a reader.
The author said:
My interpretation is that the author was alluding to the ethnographic diversity that exists in Switzerland. Let me share this Swiss cultural site with you, and what they themselves mean by their ethnography:

Inasmuch as the U.S. is also similar there is no "ethnographically speaking" an "American people." We are a hodge-podge of peoples from all over the world, beginning when the first Asians crossed the Bering Sea to today's Cuban crossing the Florida Strait. Also when it comes to religions, there is a great deal of diversity in the U.S. and India in common with Switzerland than there is in saySweden, where 87% of the people are Lutheran.

Your second question:
True, one fifth of the Swedish population is as you describe. But look at the statistics and you'll find that the indigineous population are mainly made up of other Scandinavian peoples, like the Finns and Sami minorities.

The majority of the foreign-born migration has been very recent, and those immigrants are mainly other Scandinavian countries such as the Finns, Danes,and Norwegians; and other Europeans as the Yugoslavs,Greeks and Turks.
Although there may be other groups in smaller numbers as well.
(data taken from CIA Fact book and Wikipedia)

While the immigration to Sweden is fairly recent that of the U.S. and Switzerland is inherent, part of its national and that in my opinion is the difference.

That is my humble perspective, Pia, take it for that, and only that. I have not done research on this topic.


Another perspective that Dr. Higgins did not mention is the commonality of values among the Finnish people. The Washington Post writers did mention that in Finland there is a great degree of congruency in beliefs and commonality of values. Is this true, in your perspective?

That is something that we do not have in the U.S. Each of us has our own individual set of values. I may hold very liberal opinions in certain areas and very conservative opinions in others, but it is a mix. I think that this may be true of many of us.

Dear Madridman,
What are you implying? That intolerance is the sole characteristic of conservatives?

I would agree that all of us tend to be defensive about our basic beliefs, be they conservative or liberal. And some of us resort to sarcasm when we are peeved, but I have found very few of this on this forum. And they are as likely to come from a conservative thinking person as from a liberal thinking person. (note that I am implying the definitionS of conservatives and liberals used in the U.S. only!)

Here are a few examples that prove my point. These are by the way, all very nice people, who happen to be liberal thinking.
This is from Silvita:
Followed by this bit from Aidance:
And from one of the nicest ladies on this forum, Chica:
We are all too human and all of us can become sarcastic and defensive about what is important to us!

Nevertheless this is the nicest forum in all of Internetville. For as many posts and members as this forum has there have been very few incidences of meanness.

Vale!

Geez, when you put it that way Booklady,

I didn't even notice how mean they sounded until you seperated their statements out.

I might say unkind things about someone's ideas, but those statements sound a little personal. Yeah, when push comes to shove, I'll rely on the reason of my conservative friends over the "compassion" of the liberals.

MadridMan,

I just reread your post and now I see what you meant about "talking points" from this thread. In that case, you'd probably be right about that.

But I don't think that the same question would or could be offered to liberals. After all, wasn't the gist of this question, why do Americans consider our perceived freedom greater than the freedom of European countries, or perhaps just Finland? From many of the posts on your board I've read, liberals don't like much at all about this country. I hope you can ease my doubts and prove me wrong about this. Don't we have a Nazi president? Don't we enslave poor people by forcing them to work? Don't all us conservatives hate minorities? How would these statements align with freedom? I am sincerely curious if liberals find the U.S. to have any redeeming qualities at all.

Awwww...shucks Booklady (blush blush)...thanks for the kind words.

Although I would like to consider my comments to gazpacho as good old fashioned razzing rather than sarcasm which carries a much more negative intention. I will admit that I have been guilty of using sarcasm very occasionally though!

I loved the articles that you posted...they are definitely very enlightening and I even agreed with a good percentage of them... must be the moderate in me!

I think what I find perhaps most interesting is how someone can rather blindly proclaim themself to be a "conservative" or a "liberal" as if they are completely absolute categories Aren't these just aribtrary categories more or less? I understand that the theories of liberalism and conservatism are different.

But people that consider themselves completely loyal to being a "liberal" or a "conservative" - do you really mean that there isn't even one issue that you would consider yourself in opposition to your chosen party?

I think that people like these labels of "conservative" or "liberal" because they allow you not to have to think too much. Instead of thinking intelligently about each issue and then coming to your own conclusion about it, it is easier to say, "well liberals are against it, so I am against it too." I would encourage people to be a little more independent or "moderate" if you will in their thinking. Things are just not as black and white as the two political parties would like you to believe

And Pia,

It is very predictable that since I said in my last post that you can not "P... me off" that you would then try harder by proclaiming that I am not being an adult. Basically, I think you are simply reacting to everything that I write - sorry that I seem to have such power over you. You seem rather enamored with me - Did I mention that I have a GF already - sorry! haha :p

And Gazpacho,

I am very disappointed in your post where you are basically sucking up to Pia. Did you not email me and say that you thought my posts to her were funny and that she did not have the intellect to understand my (and your) points? Now you seem to be flopping! Stick to your guns son! :p

Alando?

Sucking up to Pia? Just because I don't trash her as an individual or trash her country? I think I've totally been involved in trashing her politics. My whole arsenal was locked and loaded for that. This is the only agenda I have. What good does it do in the realm of ideas and understanding to personally go after someone? There are so many people in my life I love as individuals and am totally floored, with jaw agape, at some of the ideas they express.

As far as people categorizing themselves as conservatives or liberals, that depends on if they adhere to ideology or are just pragmatic. But most people are just pragmatic. A few like myself, through much searching, find a certain ideology to give meaning to their lives and answers to lives many questions. That's what conservatism does for me. When I see events occur that conflict with what I know about reality, I, as Ayn Rand advised, check my premises (reality, by it's very nature, cannot contain contradictions). I fall back on the metaphysics I learn from conservative teachings, and then these conflicts make much more sense.

As far as labelling others as conservatives or liberals, "integrating" is a function of the conscious, and a way to gain knowledge. In layman's terms, if you see something that looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are, it's a duck. I find arguments against identification or labelling of individuals just more psychobabble.

Bill,

As far as GW nominating a staunch conservative to the bench of the Supreme Court, this isn't what he originally did, was it? That's one of the many things for me, that proves he's not a real conservative. And the making of war, that's not a conservative effort either. But your other points I totally agree with.

I love Booklady!! Every board should have a bi-cultural librarian. I wonder if she would be interested in being my Sugar mama!?!

To Alando. I think most Americans are actually Libertarians but, because we (in general) are so politically ingorant, the vast majority of us don't know that there are options other than Republicans and Democrats. And, if we did know, the political landscape here is such that it is very difficult for a non-Dem/Repub. party to be heard.

We kind of force ourselves into their mold and so we say liberal or convervative or we call ourselves "Independents". I don't really know what an independant is. Its not a political philosophy or party.

Like Booklady said (i hope I'm not putting words into her mouth after expressing my love and affection for her), many of us are liberal on many social issues and conservative on fiscal issues. That sounds like a Libertarian to me.

Booklady, your humble opinion is what I was asking for and I'm sure I have done as little research in the topic as you

I understand the difference between Sweden and Switzerland in that the ethnic diversity of Switzerland is more inherent than the Swedish, which is, very correctly, based on pretty recent immigration and although what you see on the street is more and more a mix of different racial, ethnic and religious groups, (Here in Finland it's much less visible as it's true that most people are of European origin [6% Swedish speakers, the Romani and Sami minorities, many Estonians and Russians]) immigration in Sweden has been big only since the 1950's. But on the point of immigrants to Sweden being mostly other Europeans (20 biggest groups of foreign-born immigrants, excluding those born in Sweden http://www.immi.se/migration/statistik/20grupper.htm)
aren't the Swiss that as well? Switzerland is made up of Italian, French, German and Romansch populations with only 6% others. Aren't all those European as well? I'd assume that most of the 6% are of European descent too. But I guess that's hard to explain.

I find the assumption that people would instinctively cooperate with their "tribe" and that "tribe" always refers to race, ethnicity or religion really sad. Although it's true, I guess, I wouldn't say that there's nothing to be done about it. I guess we just always need someone to blame if things aren't going well and someone with a different physical appearance or other obvious characteristics would be the easy target; you don't have to look any deeper for the differences.

I don't really know how to answer your question on shared values - I guess our very calm political debates reflect some kind of consensus regarding some issues but I definitely wouldn't say that we all don't have "our own individual set of values". Although, as people who have lived in the same atmosphere tend to have a slightly similar world view, I'm sure I wouldn't have much problems finding as many people disagreeing with me on all the issues we've discussed here (although I'd expect to find also people who are more to the left than I am) in Finland, especially (unfortunately) race. Here that would extend to Russians as well though due to historical reasons.

Alando, as you continue ignoring the questions I'll assume that you don't have an answer and there's no use trying to discuss if you can't back up your claims so I'll stop trying. It's okay, I have a boyfriend, too. Half American by the way.