Martin,

Who would you rather have making the rules in this world? Corporate leaders who make profits by providing resources to consumers, or incompetent scum politicians and bureaucrats. For me, it's a no-brainer. Corporations might not have much in the way of concience or morals, but do you really think governments do?

Certainly you don't think a consortium of governments like the UN should make these laws? Talk about moral bankruptcy. Would you really want such incompetents making all the rules? If not them, who do you suggest? You are really scaring me dude.

I'm currently reading an anthology of Russian literature. The story I'm currently reading is "Captain Dikshtein" by Mikhail Kuraev. It's a story about the Kronstadt mutiny right after the Russian revolution. In it he describes the state of affairs in Russia at the time. This is the world that would happen if people who have your opinion of the world get their way. It is a tragedy. People starving to death because of incompetence. This is just what happens when you remove the productive people in this world. Or would you rather just make them slaves to the government morals. Your type just never learns.

Wolf, I don`t want to add salt into the wound, but, do you remember I told you THERE WHERE NO WMD all the time along? I was right. I didn`t hold that belief out of the blue, or due to my (supposed) blind hatred for the US and liberty. You know I don`t work that way. I said that because I made my research, and all the clues pointed in the same direction.
I am not reminding this to boast in a childish way, only to stress that, well, perhaps it is worth listening to my predictions when I say that I believe the Harper journalist; that is, I don`t think there is any "reconstruction" at all going on in Irak. There was an attempt, at first, to rebuild the country, but today, I don`t think there is much hope to see a prosperous, peaceful Irak in the short term. I remember now some terrible words from *an-uncertain* high officer in US army: "We have already failed, whatever we do now. The longer we linger in Irak will only make our failure more obvious". I see a country seized by anarchy, a puppet government disliked by many, and a very dangerous process leading to a true civil war. Irak 2004 is reminding more and more of Lebanon 1983, Shiites against Sunnites and Kurds against Arabs and Christians being beaten from all sides. Really, was it worth the blockade and the war for this? The depleted uranium, the children starved to death, the Gulf War Syndrom and the mutant babies?
Was it worth?
As to the USS Liberty, I don`t have a firm opinion on the issue. I think the US government treated the accident or whatever it was, in a shameful way, quite concealing it to public opinion. However it is quite likely that Israel didn`t really intend to sink a US vessel. Really, I don`t know. But I think the key point on this is, public opinion is not much aware of the matter. No one makes TV films, Hollywood movies or documentaries on that sinking. Neither they make them on the Beirut attack (1983?), when all those marines were killed while assisting...whom?
I think the article on Israel is tough, but quite balanced. It sounds harsh all along, but the fact is, it doesn`t say a lie. You don`t need to apologize for not saying the mainstream version, you don`t need to include (as you imply) the arguments of the other part to make a good and informative article.
It DOES mention bombings commited by Palestinians, only that it doesn`t fail to mention that US media report several times more often Jewish victims rather than Arab ones. When the writer states the figures of Jewish and Arab victims, the latter several times higher, it is quite apparent that Jews were not murdered through hugs and kisses. You say the author is unfair for not mentioning the "good side", the aid US has provided all along these years to many countries. I respond to that, if the facts that this article states were kept in mind when discussing US foreign policy, mostly in the media and electoral campaigns, if those facts were widely known by public opinion, I don`t see why external aid should be shortened at all: but sure invasions like the current ones would finish once and forever...and you would save money!
Now I am not any expert on economy, but I can assure you that the Palestinians, who used to make quite a happy and wealthy land of their country before the invasion, are not idle now out of their genetical sloth. More likely they don`t build up anything in the West Bank nor Gaza because it is impossible. You can`t create any profitable company when you lack any kind of assets, suffer a mercyless siege which keeps you isolated and you are being bombed every other day. Look at the Lebanese, they have quite managed to rebuild their country...after kicking the Israelis south of the border.
And I can assure you one more thing, the Palestinians are making terrorist attacks because it is the cheapest way to make war. I am sure if the US provided them with missiles and helicopters they would be happy to leave those filthy "suicide bomber" tactics aside.

Cristobo,

On WMD... neither you nor I knew beyond a reasonable doubt, that there were or were not any WMD present in Iraq prior to the US going in to Iraq.

Whereas I believed it was strongly possible, based on the intel info that I'd seen, you believed there wasn't, based on your personal beliefs. Therefore, you haven't said anything that would make me believe you could rub salt in any wounds.

As for the USS Liberty, it wasn't "covered up" as you indicated, because I saw details and information about it having happened on the news the day the attack took place. I also saw the immediate reaction of the Israeli government, through their emissaries in DC, who were publicly apologizing for the incident, and stating it was under investigation, the same as the US government said, at the same time.

As for the article you posted being true, it isn't! It's a total lie and you know it. Using information selectively culled from a report, statements out of text, and blatant offerings of inuendo as "facts" is a lie no matter what your political beliefs are.

Just because some far left wing internet offering says it wasn't that way doesn't mean anything. The incident was not covered up.

Was the Gulf War worth the cost? I don't know. Maybe you should ask the people of Kuwait who were overran by Hussein's army, not the people of Iraq who unfortunately were Hussein's tool to make the attack. You might also ask Hussein and any other zealot "why they load every target of opportunity with civilians, mainly women and children," so they can turn it into a press opportunity to make the US look bad.

Of course, if you believe that this tactic, of using civilians as shields is fine, there isn't much more I can say.

I don't intend getting into a war of words with you over any of this because it just isn't worth the time or the effort. Nothing that the US has ever done, or will ever do, will be right in your mind.

Wolf

By "corporate leaders," you mean like Bush buddy Ken Lay? By "incompetent scum polititicians and bureaucrats," do you mean like GW Bush and Cheney?

I would have governments who were chosen by their people in a free and uncoerced election make the rules. Large corporations, as we have seen with the large number of scandals, can't even treat their employees fairly. Also, if you look at the corporate rule now active in the US, you can see my point about going towards the ruin of South American countries. Unfortunately, the US does not currently have a freely elected president, and so, is NOT a democracy, but rather a dictatorship, and the Republicans are nakedly doing the same corrupt manipulations, this time across the country, not just in Florida.

You will probably be ok for a while. But if you were someone who depended on overtime to make ends meet, you would be SOL right now. Eventually the fat sharks will have to start devouring their own, smaller kind because all the little fish that they are currently gorging themselves on will be eaten up. THEN you, and those like you will be fair prey, unless you happen to be worth many tens, or hundreds of millions of dollars.

You said that it would be ok by you if the corporations were not taxed at all. Well, most of the larger corporations aren't. I think if they are not paying taxes, then they should get off the huge public dole. Large corporations receive more welfare than anyone. Your "trickle down" (actually it should be "flood up") economics has been shown to be a scam. The rich do not reinvest their gains in anything which produces anything for the general good.

Why do people need tens, hundreds, thousands of millions of dollars? Are they so insecure that that is the only way they feel themselves to be worthy, complete? Do you really believe that "The one who dies with the most expensive toys WINS?" Where does compassion, a zeal for the general welfare, the common good, for justice, for feeling outrage that there are innocent children who are sick and hungry in the country, in the world, fit into your world view? Why do the Republicans froth at the mouth about the rights of the fetus, then slash fundings for those fetuses who survived, who were born, by decimating programs like WIC (Women, Infants and Children), education, school lunches, etc.? Do you have to have a few more million to buy yet another BMW 4x4, yatch, 50000 sq ft house, etc. etc. at their expense? Where does your greed end and your heart start? After all, aren't these the things ALL the great prophets of the religions of the world addressed. Isn't THAT the message: "Love your fellow man as yourself?" If this makes me a "Bleeding Heart Liberal," then I think I am in excellent company!

Martin,

It may surprise you, but yes, I do mean people like President Bush and Vice President Cheney. All politicians are parasites and should have nothing to do with our economy. But fortunately, these two are the best of the lot and allow the economy not to be threatened. I don't want any politician or government interfering with the great economy we enjoy now.

As far as when greed ends, I hope never. I want people to exceed as far as they can go in our economy, myself included. I really don't even understand your concept of greed. But I do understand the benefits of self interest and competition. And, as I've said before, worrying about the poor doesn't feed them. That's what you bleeding heart liberals are all about, touchy-feely, good intentions. To me, people are responsible for their own lot in life, they shouldn't be dependent on me, or the government. I don't get my butt up out of bed every morning to work for them. I suggest that the vast majority of chronically unemployable, stop the party, get an education, knock on doors, and don't live off my guilt, I don't have any. Shoot, making money in the U.S. is as easy as finding money in the streets. If they can't make it in the U.S., you can't make it anywhere. I've been to places that would be extremely hard to make a living.

I have nothing but gratitude for the great lifestyle I enjoy in this country. Must score you a lot of points with your Spanish friends when you bad-mouth the U.S. I am hardly a millionaire, far from it, but I don't find it in me to envy people who are far more productive and creative than I am. That kind of thinking is just plain unhealthy. If someone makes more than I do, I find the fault in myself not others.

I can't get over your doom and gloom outlook for the U.S. There are more beautiful houses being built everyday, the malls are full, and we have 5.3% unemployment. 5% is the healthy mark. I probably couldn't even sleep at night if I had such a bad attitude as yours toward success. I hope one day that you will see that life just isn't that unfair. Enjoy what you have, don't agonise over what you don't have.

It would be difficult to truly have censorship in this day and age. For the past 75 years there has been short wave radio and that to a great extent slowed down censorship. With the information superhighway ie. the internet it is now impossible. The word is going to get out. It is amazing since the internet that newspapers that post 24 hrs a day now will have on the net within minutes almost the same story wording no mater what country the paper is from.

Gazpacho, you are right greed is the gasoline that powers the economic engine and it does not mater what country it is in. Calvin Coolidge said that he was not concerned about communisim as it went against everthing in human nature, and would eventually bring about it's own demise. I was reading one of the competeing web cites to this one and they had a thread about the great health care in Spain. About three weeks later the subject came up about the quality of the med schools, and that they were lacking. Something does not fit, the medical care can only be as good as the training of the MDs. I will take our market based medicine over social medicine anytime. I personally had a run in with a table saw this summer, to the the tune of $48,000. Greed is what powered those people to get in and learn to be top notch MDs and make the time and investment, so that when some redneck puts his hand in a table saw they can put it back together again so he can be productive, and greedy himself.The stepping the toe in the water of social medicine here in the US in the form of HMOs has proven to be a dismal failure.

USMC Staff Sgt. Jimmy Lopez, one of my fellow Zonies, while he was held captive for 444 days in Iran said it best when he took his shoe leather and wrote on his cell wall "viva la rojo blanco y azul" interpertation, long live the red white and blue.

PS. "Zonies" is what the Californians call us from Arizona.

Thanks Desert Dweller,

I'm an Ayn Rand fan and will never accept the liberal idea of altruism. If you ever want to listen to pure reason and understand why capitalism is the only way, read Ayn Rand, if you haven't already. It has changed my life after being dragged through and brainwashed by the Socialist mire of our so-called education system. I see things all to0 clearly now.

It's been over fifteen years since I started reading here works, and I'm still a wild-eyed fanatic of hers.

Desert dweller:

Internet is just another media and it wiil be (it is being) controlled sooner or later by governments and lobbies, through:

-spyonage: Like the echelon network
-control of the online information sources still independent (buying, making them close with laws and trials, ...)
-Legal restricitions to what can be put or seen in the net, like in Cuba you can't freely access the net, in Iran nudity is banned, in Germany you cannot promote nazism (which is a political idea), and in the USA a progressive website is pretty prone to attacks of CIA? hackers, or campaigns of new forum members sabotaging debates, ...

Sorry to say that but our only hope is defend diversity upon all, by stacking to the independent information sources as far as they keep being independent and prove true, and rejecting the rest, and not let ourselves be alienated.

Anything that's alive, gets older and eventually rottens, then it's time to search for a new born being. Ant there are strong rottening lobbies that are trying all the time to corrupt the media, which is the key to the political power that will is so profitable for corporations.

Look it like this: they make a great marketing investment in the elction of the USA president (for example), and they want to have an excellent return, be it through taxes reduction, expoilating countries or getting juicy contracts, that all americans will pay.

Like here, in Spain, PP almost destroyed, and gravely deteriorated an excellent health system, that Clinton & wife studied as an example for a possible USA new health system, converting it into a sh*tty one within seven (7) years. Why? They had to pay the private clinics lobby their support.

They just sell out our welfare and we keep on being f*cked and happily vote the new robbers that will do the same the next 4 years with their patrons (lobbies on their back.).

I totally agree, Gazpacho. I was drawn to Ayn Rand because she understood the fallacies of altruistic societies well. Having spent part of her youth when Lenin was developing his five year plans in Rusia, she well understood the reality of such a society. I was drawn to her becuase of my experience under Castro. Toute la meme chose, as the French say. Castro borrowed from Lenin, early on, the concept behind the five year plans to totally regulate society for the good of the country, and he of course was the country.

Sure, corporate leaders are better for you, hahahaha

Can't believe it. go on, you make my day.