gazpacho, I invite you to start your own Pro-Bush thread and that way you'll have a forum of discussing specifics (not just feelings) about the GOOD things he and his administration have done. (do I hear crickets chirping in the silence? hehehe.. )

OKAY! Now on with the Fahrenheit 9/11 discussion. I believe that's the topic of this thread.

Let's give gazpacho (& Al) their specifics. Does anyone know someplace (maybe the official website of the movie itself) where we can find a transcript of the movie? Lets gather 10 verifiable things, with footnotes, to list and carry/Kerry it around with us for when people shout about how everything in ºF 9/11 is lies and "leaps of faith". Anyone have time to take this on?

Saludos, MadridMan

C'mon Madridman,

I'm starting to feel my temperature rise. Did I ever make a post supporting Bush? Did I ever say he's the best president we ever had? Did I ever say he was even a good leader? God D-----. I just want to understand people that are against him.

I feel realatively indifferent about the man to tell you the truth, but my God man, could it be just politics that causes rational people like yourself to hate someone so much?! Incredible. And so disappointed you could not even come up with one specific reason to hate Bush. I really expected more.

I'll take a moment aside from the current topic, the movie, to say to gazpacho and everyone: I NEVER SAID I HATED BUSH! Heck, I don't even know the man. I'm sure he's fun to party with. What I have been saying is that he's taken our country into a realm that makes me extremely uncomfortable and angry: USA = WARING COUNTRY. YOU'RE EITHER WITH US OR WITH THE TERRORISTS. Talk about a not-so-idle and arrogant threat towards the rest of the world! My goodness! I imagine the first thing that comes to the minds of people around the globe when the USA is mentioned is VIOLENCE, WAR, MURDERS, POWER, and GREED. Now THIS I HATE - being associated with these characteristics that does not reflect my own personality whatsoever.

Okay. Thanks for pausing. Now back to the movie discussion. Let's get that list together.

Saludos, MadridMan

"The last president sent a message to the rest of the world that the American people are so morally bankrupt, they could elect a leader that was just as morally bankrupt."

And the current president is sending the message to the rest of the world that he believes "the-rest-of-the-world" is his own back yard; (Which is not too bad for someone whom "the-rest-of-the-world" (and many of his fellow countrymen as I understand it, from knowing personally a few of them), still doubts was legitimately(¿?) elected, unlike president Clinton.)

Give me a president stupid enough to screw up and lie about his own marriage, over one that messes around with thousands of lives from several countries other than his and lies to everyone in the process, anyday....

Gazpacho, I didnt read every singly post so Im not sured if you have seen the film..Seriously, if you havent, do it(I mean, please, you should go ), I really wanna know whats your impresion and how do you feel after doing it. Some people who support Bush (I dont mean you do) are afraid of seeing it, I presume its not your case...

saludos

Sorry my friend Charlost. You probably wouldn't.

Madridman....I think I'm hearing those crickets....

Seriously, did I really overestimate the ability of President Bush's detractors to rationally join a debate? I got a couple of bites, and I thank the people that provided them.

Hello Gazpacho, I knew some muslim inmigrants in Madrid, when I asked them after 9/11 what they thought about the atack they said:

"That's all lies, muslims cannot kill innocent people, USA hate the muslim countries"
"This is an anti-muslim conspiracy".

You act exactly like they did (I'm not telling that you are pro-terrorist, fascist or something like that , I´m simply telling that you don´t refute the arguments with arguments, you simply say: This man is antibush.

Well, when I said something I give facts:

1.- There was no massive destruction weapons.
2.-There was no links beetween Irak and Al-Qaeda.
3.- Soldiers tortured and killed prisioners.
4.-Bush, Blair and Aznar Lied.

You really think a lie that causes 20 thousand deads ( most of them civil) is like a lie about a blow***??

Have you really thought about why orthodoxes, muslims, The Rome Pope, every country of world ( except two or three) and probably some alien dislike about Bush politic?????
And don´t tell me they hate Bush cause he is right wing because there was a lot of USA presidents republicans and NEVER were hated like Bush, in fact some of them were really admired.

It´s really incredible to see again newspapers clippings about Pre-war:
Do u remember the photos of tracks and buildings charged with massive destruction weapons?
Do u remember when thay said that iraquis will welcome all the troops??, Do u remembered when they said the oil price will fall after the war????....Must I continue??

All this are facts.

Thank you pippo. All of the facts you state make my blood boil. This is what Moore is talking about in the film. Another post 9/11 consequence has been the loss of freedom of speech. Many people have lost their jobs for speaking out. Let's start with Bill Maher, fired for commenting that whatever those terrorists who flew those plane into buildings were, they weren't cowards. A stupid comment, of course, but this from a totally pro-Israel guy. Clearly he wasn't praising the terrorists. Now the American olympic atheletes are being advised to please not wave the American flag too much when they win--people could be offended. Now that REALLY makes my blood boil--we can't be proud of America overseas? Yep, that's true, thanks to Karl Rove, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld (remember him? Notice how scarce he's been of late...), and lastly, Bush, who is named last because clearly it isn't his brains running this folly. No, give me a guy foolish enough to lie about a blow *** by a chubby intern, but smart enough to understand the importance of good international relations.

GROUP HUG!!!!

Once again I have to correct aidance. I really have no interest in discussung politics on the web or on this webite. It leads to nothing, but I can't abide the inaccuracies that are posted here and left to fester by the moderator. (note to Madridman-If you can't verify it, delete it. You have done it with many anti Spain posts.)

The constitution guarantees a person free speech from GOVERNMENT censorship, but does not guarantee that person will be listened to or spared from commercial repraisals. Bill Maher, Whoopi Goldberg and Linda Ronstadt are all free to speak what ever they want. Whether the market will continue to support them is another matter.

I was in Spain during the Lewinsky debacle. They (the Spaniards) were plenty upset. All the headlines were comparing 1898 to 1998. Remember the Maine? I'll give you time to look it up.

I'm not interested in proving Clinton to be a Bastard or for Bush to be a Bastard. I only want to see the facts to be presented correctly.