After seeing like 40 minutes of the film, I can only say: O my God!

It's not only as bad as I thought, I am learning there was much more filth and corruption in there.

And it shows too, how the media in the States block the info to the public, as well as clarifies the reasons for Afghanistan and Irak (the latter, instead of Arabia Saudi, much more implied but whose leaders were partners of Bush and Co.), with many testimonies, visual proofs and all, many times of high rank officials of the USA, as well as Bush and his secretaries' word contradicting what they themselves affirmed later.

Also, the attitude of Bush after 9/11 was... being frozen! A great leader.

Should be a mandatary read at schools. I say, you see the film, and you don't agree, it's OK anybody can have an opinion. But not seeing this is refusing have a critical look on what's happening and condemning yourself to swallow anything no matter how rotten.

Ignacio, what a coincidence you should re-start this thread because RIGHT NOW (I took a break for a phone call from Madrid and decided to check the message board) I'm watching Fahrenheit 9/11 on DVD.

I saw the film already in the theaters soon after its release but now I'm watching it more for the extra 100 minutes in the "Special Features" section of the DVD, apart from the film itself and it is very interesting including video taken from a cameraman who was documenting the "home invasions" and subsequent treatment of those detainees. Some soldiers were shown posing for photos with a hooded prisoner while the soldier smiled and laughed for the photo - not to mention the scene where several soldiers leaned down to an old man on a cot on the ground to pinch/tweak his penis and then laugh and tell jokes about it. Appauling, to be sure.

There's also video of interviews of Iraqis in the days before the commencement of the bombing when they knew it would happen. They spoke about how they felt about it and how they would fight back.

It's DEFINITELY worth the DVD rental (or purchase) just for the extra 100 minutes of video apart from the film itself.

Go in peace, MadridMan

Ignacio,

You state that this film should be mandatory viewing. Would you also believe then, my friend, that counter views such as Fahrenhype 911 or Celsius 411 should be viewed as well?

Do you suppose that we could agree that no one should have to believe as gospel truth anything that comes from the White House, the Moncloa,...or Hollywood?

Do you also think we could agree that most everyone lives in their own cognitive dissonance and will believe in anything that suits their own agenda?

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

Pinguino, what I meant by saying this, was that I was surprised for so many truths, so many proofs of the truths, and the way some pieces that suddenly clicked in and fitted. Very well made.

This surprised me, because I was a little dissapointed with his book "Stupid white men", where facts were mixed with uncertain populist opinions, and the book was few cohesionated, like pressing together scattered thoughts of the author.

As for Farenhype or Celsius, I couldn't tell without seeing them if they give any aditional info, since, being anti-Moore, they probably serve the same stuff the big Media gives. But maybe. If I heard they were good films that you can learn of, I would see them.

Absolutely.

Not really. I think this depends on the culture you live in. This last years have been very instructive for me, because I learnt many americans do intellectually adhere to the most convenient idea for them.

Of course, spanish people (and elsewhere's) do what they believe is more profitable for them, but they don't believe the ideas they defend, they don't self-hipnotize themselves . They know what they do is wrong and feel guilty all the time.

I believe wisdom consists of seeing the world and anything within the way it is (or the closer possible), so self-influencing yourself to make it fit in a vision that justifies your position, makes you fool yourself.

I personally do the opposite. See what is fair and act accordingly, not reject what is out there and create an imaginary world.

Ignacio,

You're referring to "the truth according to Moore." In reality, the entire film is made up of clips which don't relate to half of what the facts were. Even the so called "headlines" from newspapers are a hoax by the Moore people, yet there are so many people that swallow this garbage hook, line, and sinker, because they do not follow up on the issues, and find the facts.

I'm a bit more discriminate in what I view as the truth, even when it doesn't suit my own personal beliefs. Since I want Bush out of office, and feel we erred in going into Iraq because the allegations of WMD weren't true, I still cannot, and will not buy into a pack of lies by Moore just because it would "justify my personal beliefs."

To me, the mark of a person's true being is in how they deal with facts, not illusions that come from others who have an axe to grind against someone else. Any American who would just buy what he says on face value obviously isn't interested in the real facts, just the point of view he represents.

Just my thoughts. Since I believe Moore is a joke, I can't buy into anything he says or does without supporting evidence.

Wolf

Dear Ignacio,

So, Spain is filled with a bunch of guilt-ridden nihilists? Great. And you think that fairness equates to reality.....Ummmmm. I think that's what they call self-delusion.

As for anyone not seeing Moore's opus swallowing anything dished at them, I think you might want to give this some thought. Wouldn't you rather have schoolchildren exposed to reality rather than propaganda?...probably in your case not.

I'm trying to work this one out. Convenient ideas? None of my ideas seem convenient. Most of them cause a lot of rebuke even from fellow Americans. If I had 'convenient' ideas, I'd be the type to swallow any idea anyone had to offer. You know, I'd be a liberal.....

Wolf

In the film, there are many testimonies of people involved in the war, including soldiers in Irak and high rank officers or ex-officers of the USA government. Are these hoaxes too?

Gazpacho

Not nihilists, but when we do something against our conscience, we feel guilty, instead of reshaping reality in a world where their actions are OK.

Years ago I spoke with one american guy, who later on became an excellent friend, whom I see from time to time even today, and I asked him if he didn't feel guilty for not helping these poor people around the world who are dying of hunger and disease, or not helping as much as he should, and lead a comfortable life instead.

He said he wasn't responsible, that he had had to study very hard to get his engineering degree with almost a "cum laude", his family had had to pay lots of money for his studies and he would be paying for years too.

This was true, but he didn't mention that in many countries people can't have the oportunitiees to study, because they can hardly eat each day, and if they can, it's no use to get a degree because there are no jobs, or at least good jobs, ...

For us spanish (most) maybe because of our catholic moral, that situation is unfair and we feel guilty for not helping enough and also feel the rest are guilty if they don't help. That's the difference, we just don't justify ourselves blaming them or pretending it has nothing to do with us.

A very different conscience.

Ignacio,

Of course there are individuals who have a specific opinion on any topic, or can point at a singular incident in the course of events, and tell what they saw/experienced. But does that mean they are totally right?

Over the years people have manipulated what others think by throwing a small number facts into an argument, then supporting those few facts with a preponderance of inuendo and misrepresented information. It's common, and it's worked, because people don't often take the time to search out the validity of what was said - accepting it at face value, as if the person presenting it was a fair-minded individual, with absolutely no ulterior motives, or intent other than to tell the truth.

Moore is a "bottom-feeder." His intent is to offer "conspiracy theories" that are unsubstantiated, loaded with inuendo and false statements, all to line his own pockets, and to convince people - through lies if necessary, that his personal point of view is correct.

The people who have lauded Moore most are those who have failed to do their homework on the truth, either intentionally, or because they believe that anything from that particular point of view has to be true because everything is a "great conspiracy."

If you want people to believe you're a fair-minded individual, you don't go off on tangents that are unsubstantiated.

A lesson can be learned here. You might want to take the time to research the facts compared to what Moore alleged. It's completely different than what he alluded.

Wolf

Ignacio,

You have provided a very good argument and I really enjoy that you take the time to point out how a typical Spaniard views the world. And I am sincere about this.

From an American, well, at least from my point of view, a young graduate engineer would not have the resources to do anything for a poor person living in a poor country. His first responsibility, at this point in his life, would be to himself and his family. Later in life, if he is successful and has the means, he can contribute to charity or get involved with missions, relief efforts and the like. But what good would he do anyone if he didn't concentrate and learn to be productive after getting out of school? This is where his efforts should be.

Now, from the point of view of a capitalist, I believe this young man would be doing more for a poor person by building the best roads, the best bridges, the best airplanes, etc. that he can create, than by giving to charity or spending time with them. And, I hope he makes a ton of money in the process, which will motivate him to make even better bridges, etc... Whether or not he feels guilty about this, is just not my concern. His guilt of being successful is of utterly no value and quite laughable. Capitalism is successful because everyone benefits by means of self-interest, not liberal altruism. I believe that here, we consider morals more of an internal matter, than something imposed, or at least expected of you, by society.

At the risk of being struck by lightning bolts (or rocks), I must ask those who think F9/11 is bunk...
-Did W receive financial aid from the Saudis?
-Did he fly the BinLadin family out of the US immediately after 9/11?
-Did he actually just sit there, staring off into space and listening to My Little Goat, or was that scene manipulated by Moore?
-Did W really miss a required physical and was he really banned from flying because of it?

See, the movie brings up some issues that really need straight forward answers, and straight forward answers are hard to come by these days.
So please, if you have factual, solid information to prove or disprove my honest questions, do let me know. No need to be verbally abusive about it...just calmly let me know what the unbiased facts are.