Martín

Although I know there were many americans who knew the dirty truths and who was the first-stance responsible for all this violence, it´s nice to see that NOW, they can also post and debate without being considered traitors, and can thus, speak freely.

For anybody with a brain and who has had independent sources of information, or who can at least compare different ones and work out the truth, it's pretty obvious that your description of the recent history of those three countries is as described by you. Unfortunately, this will never reach some because of the media or because they just don't want to know. Power without responsability. Kids playing with nukes.

Just wanted to show my complete support in this matter.

Ignacio:

Thank you for your support. It means a great deal, becuase I am often abused by people who, although they know better, obstinately defend a non-defensible position. This is known as cynicism. One of the main reasons I decided to stay on in Spain after arriving here in August, 2000, was that shameful rigged election (which the Republican apologists continue to deny, despite solid proof of the illegal, immoral and un-American actions by the RNC and Jeb Bush and his cohorts). These people should all be put in prison, preferably Gitmo! The defacto dictatorship of GWB and company will undoubtably go down in the history books as one of the absolute shameful low points of the US political system, along with the internment of Japanese Ameircans, genocide of indigenous peoples, the Iran/Contra and Watergate episodes, the impeachment of Clinton, the Tonkien Gulf Resolution, etc. etc. What a legacy.

To those whom the upcoming election is a one-issue event, eg. abortion and stem-cell research, I am amazed and aghast at how conveniently these "compassionate conservatives" can use the issue of the rights of the unborn as a way to make political hay, then turn around and deny basic prenatal health care, WIC (Women Infants and Children) programs, education, Social Security, etc. (in other words the whole gamut of mainly Democratic-sponsered programs)to these precious life forms after they exit the womb! What blatant hypocracy! It shows the LIE in their initial argument against abortion. It shows their real agenda: control and profit. Along these lines, I have finally identified the alien race to which George Bush and his group belong: the Firengi! Remember these Star Trek Deep Space Nine favorites? Their whole culture was based on making a profit, by any and all means possible, legal or illegal, moral or immoral. If the spaceship fits, wear it!

Martin de Madrid,

I sure am glad you decided to move to Madrid. I feel sorry for Spain though.

Charlost,

You'll be happy to hear that the new U.S. policy, if the Dems win the election, will be to wag their fingers at terrorists and tell them in a firm voice, well, as firm as John-John Edwards can get, that what they do will not be tolerated. Why don't I feel any safer? Fear not, help is on the way.

Gazpacho:

How about responding with something more substantial than this? Like a reasoned, supported argument? This type of response only proves my points.

Do you REALLY think Bush has made things safer? Does the Arab world trust us more now? Is Al Qaida weaker, or is it recruiting more members from disillusioned Muslims? Do you really think his war policy has been a success? Have his tax give-aways to the rich made us more able to afford this war? Do expensive, out-of-control mercenaries win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis? Do the ever widening war crime/torture scandals really help our cause? Do you really believe this war is about liberating anything more than Iraqi oil? How has shifting troops, especially Special Forces troops from Afganistan to Iraq helped us capture Bin Laden? I could go on, and on, and on about domestic policy, law breaking by Bush's gang, etc. How does raiding the treasury for the benefit of the wealthiest few percent of US citizens make the country more secure? Tell me! I am all ears! Tell me! Let me in on the BIG SECRET! How do you back a party that says Clinton should be impeached for the Lewinski affair (yes, Clinton was a cad, but not a criminal), yet it is JUST FINE for the Republican National Committee to pull off a coup and steal our rights, including your rights, by the way, which are guaranteed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Remember? "One man (woman), one vote?" Tell me! Please! How do you reconcile these facts (and they ARE FACTS)? Can you give me a straight answer?

As for Edwards, I believe he is a decorated Viet Nam War vetran, no? HE went to war. Bush used what was a widespread tatic to dodge the draft (remember, I was 18 in 1970), jumping ahead of hundreds of people on the NG list in order to get a cushy position, then apparently going AWOL (ok, we don't KNOW he was AWOL, but, when someone withholds information which should be able to prove his innocence or guilt, it DOES look rather suspicious, no?). This means some unfortunate who was on the list, and who would have been in the Guard ended up doing Bush's service, probably in Viet Nam. Bush was never anywhere near the front lines, Kerry was daily. Kerry couldn't go AWOL, he was "in country." Bush was, well, we don't REALLY know where he was for part of the time, do we? Kerry has FOUGHT a war. Bush has AVOIDED serving in the front lines. While Kerry was getting shot at (and hit), Bush got out early (a sweetheart deal. . . I defy you to show that this was routine), to go to Harvard Business School!

Bush says Kerry flip-flops. Tell me, just what is saying we are invading Iraq because they are an imminent threat, then, when that is proven false, that we invaded because Sadaam tortures people and denies them their God-given Civil Rights, then, when, due to Administration decisions to abandon the Geneva Convention, and encourage torture, denial of Civil Rights to at least one American citizen in Gitmo, etc., THAT reason is shot down, then he says Sadaam was in league with Al Qaida so we needed to invade, and THAT is proven false. . . JUST WHO IS THE FLIP FLOPPER? Bush sounds like sandals at the boardwalk in Malibu beach: "flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop. . . "

As far as your juvenile dig about being glad that I "moved to Spain. . ." thank you! I feel right at home here, along with the 95% of Spanards who oppose the "You're either for us or against us," unilateral stance which the US government has taken on the war. In the US, neither you nor I could demonstrate freely our objections to the opposition, although this is guaranteed by our most sacred political principles and founding documents; we would illegally be confined to a "free speech zone" behind dumpsters where we would be out of sight and out of hearing. I would be called (and probably am called by some, although I am confident that YOU would not be among them) a traitor for voicing my guaranteed right to speak up against something I disagree with. Tom Paine (ever hear of him?) said, "I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it!" I respect your differing viewpoint. You are totally within your constitutional rights to say almost anything you wish. Personally I enjoy a spirited debate, and, believe it or not, I can, to a point, emphasize with how you might arrive at the conclusions you have. In general I have enjoyed your participation on this wonderful board, even when I strongly disagreed with you. However, your last post shows an unfortunate tendency, I feel, towards intolerance of anyone who opposes you with thoughtful (at least I hope it was thoughtful) counter arguments.

Perhaps you would feel more comfortable in a country in which only one viewpoint was allowed. Bin Laden promises to establish such a place, but I doubt you would really want to live there. Don't worry, after Kerry is elected, he will do everything he can to repeal the censorship mechanisms which have been put into place, and your dissenting voice will be allowed to be heard without anyone in the Administration suggesting that you are a traitor, or that you should move somewhere else.

Well Martin,

What I said was rather harsh, and I apologize for that. I never suggested that you move to another country. However, after your scathing attack on the U.S., I suppose you took the only option left for a person of your view and integrity, so I have to hand it to you, you did put your money where your mouth is. And I don't, in any way, think you're a traitor, just because you have a negative view of the U.S.

I just don't accept any of your premises about Bush or the U.S. And these are premises, since I've never heard of Martin de Madrid as being the source of all knowledge and just can't bring myself to believe that you've cornered the market on facts. And please, realize you aren't bringing any revelations to this discussion by going over the democratic litany of Bush hate speech. We are inundated with this drivel by the press. I had a supervisor that believed that if he repeated something enough times, that that proved it to be true. I haven't heard you offer any supporting evidence either. Just the same old litany, like a political mantra. In short, you come on a little strong.

I know what's really going on. The Dems elected a real sleaze-bag, sorry if this phrase isn't allowed MM, for president and got caught at it, and now to retaliate, they think they can convince people that President Bush is no better, or even worse. It is a very good effort, and people are putting a lot of energy into it. With all your accomplices in the media, it might darn well fly. But I believe, that President Bush has more integrity, conviction, and competence in his little toenail, than the former president did, and does, plus any of the current Dem choices put together.

So no, I don't answer your scathing attack on the current administrations because they are contrived at best spetious at their worst, and mean-spirited. And yes, I suppose the U.S. has made some policy errors in the past, present and will in the future, but there just isn't any better country.

What "attack on the US?" To state historical fact is not an "attack." You really need to learn your history. Everything I said can be backed up with official documents. I agree, hiding one's head in the sand is NOT the way to resolve anything, but, since you, as expected, can apparently offer no supported counter-argument, I am completely satisfied.

Ok,

Peace Martin.

And to you, hermano.

I just returned to the US from Madrid, where I saw the movie last week. Going back to the original topic of this thread, I found the film to be rather thought-provoking, no matter what your political opinion may be. I think that there are way too many uninformed voters in the US and that something like this film may be good in that hopefully it will cause people to think what their opinions are and why they believe them. I certainly hope that people see the film and not base their decisions on what others tell them about it. I hear how many people attack the slanted views of the press, then rely on those views (or views slanted in the opposite direction)to inform them of the world events. Even if they do not agree with what the movie offers, it will serve people well to check the information portrayed in the film for themselves.
I was in Madrid studying for my Masters degree, and read an article in my Spanish Civilization and Culture class about freedom of speech (studying how Spain transitioned from absolute lack of freedom of expression with the Ley de Fraga in 1966 to obtaining this freedom in the Constitution of 1978). The article stated one of the foundations of this freedom is the defense of the same rights and freedoms of expression for those who have dissenting opinions and the voices of people outside the mainstream. This is the true spirit of freedom of speech.

On another note, it somehow happened that right before the movie started, the Princes of Asturias, Felipe and Letizia sat down right next to me. I was quite shocked and didn't believe it at first, but I am completely sure it was them. As for their reaction to the film, of course they left as soon as it was over and I did not have the chance to ask, but the body language of Letizia and some of her comments to Felipe that I overheard were of shock to the images of dying Iraqis and the comments of the American soldiers, and disbelief at the comments of Bush (especially during the dinner "haves and have-mores" and the now-famous golf course quote)

Also, I forgot to mention in my previous post that the theater was full, and the film was being shown in two of the salas at the cine I went to (Cine Princesa in Plaza de los Cubos). At the conclusion, the audience applauded. There was also some coverage in Spanish press of the film, both of what it deals with and how it was being recieved in the US (including the Linda Ronstadt incident).