Excuse me while I blow the dust off of this message board account... *COUGH*

I'm sorry I haven't been around for a while... however the contents of this thread explain why.

Glad to see you're still posting Wolf and that you still are as reasonable as ever. And your quick temper is still there too

Venga ya Chica sabías que iban a por tí con esto!

And where oh where is Calibasco??? Kaixo??

Good to see you back Asterault! I missed you! Seriously! Your point of view is important.

I think the question we should be asking ourselves, and we obviously don't have the answer to it at this time, is who are the prisoners that have been humiliated? If they are terrorists, and not "another Iraqi" as has been alluded to in some posts, why should there be any question as to how they are treated? They are not protected by the Geneva Convention or the World Court in any way or form, if they are insurgents.

To continue to lump them in with the rest of the prisoners whom I don't know the reason for their incarceration, isn't realistic. You deal with terrorists in a manner consistent with the policies you have in place to deal with them, and as far as their human rights, essentially they have none.

If psychological humiliation is an effective measure of getting these people to give up other terrorists, I find it difficult to believe that the humiliation and degredation they are facing is really as serious a problem as people would like to believe it is.

In essence, their treatment is one hell of a lot better than that which was given Berg. Like someone said. Which is worse? Beheading like was done to Berg, or humiliation? That should be an easy enough question to answer.

Wolf

I'm sorry Wolf I can't agree with that.

"They are not protected by the Geneva Convention or the World Court in any way or form, if they are insurgents."

They are protected by the convention of "we are not a bunch of sadistic thugs." If US troops are there to "teach democracy" and "make friends" that would include providing proper judicial procedures for everyone. Y punto, sin excepciones.

When are you in Spain then?

Asterault,

Actually I can't argue against your point because I agree with it. We should be above those tactics. But, of course, we aren't. But we should recognize that there are tactics used in the realm of intelligence that go outside the norm for prisoners being held for crimes. They're there, and they are used, in probably just about every nation, regardless of what they say openly.

What I'm trying to convey is that much of the outcry we've been hearing about the pics from the Iraqi prisons is that it is "poor Iraqis," never alluding to the fact that the people in the pictures more than likely are not people who stole a wristwatch, or picked someones pocket. These pictures may very well be of only hardcore terrorists whose agenda is to kill anyone who doesn't follow, and obey, their way of life. Sometimes we become a little jaded in our views by saying... "Those poor men......" when in reality, they are beasts. Just trying to keep things in perspective on it, not throw it out as a defense for what's being done.

I'm hoping to get to Spain in September or October, health permitting. I miss it. We have to meet for a cup of cafe con leche, or a beer. I'd like that. I need to go on a tapas walk so badly.....

Wolf

Fernando,

I've never called a leftist unpatriotic, though you could be referring to accusations made by others. Chica is not unpatriotic in my mind. Just extremely misguided in her philosophies, God Bless her.

What strikes me odd in this country is the repugnance of the label "leftist" especially, by the left. That you consider Democrats right is puzzling to me. Ours haven't been allowed to turn down right Socialist, but they try hard when in power.

I don't understand why you, or even Madridman don't like the right vs. left issue. For me it's just a fact of life. You'd have to be an ostrich not to recognize it's existence.

Wolf is right. We are so polarized in our politics in this country right now. You must understand this from your own history? The red and blue areas of the U.S. during the last election are similar to the Republic vs Nationalist map of Spain in 1936. You'd have to be a little dull not to see the parallels.

Personally, if you can't tell by now, I'm on the right, and it just irks me when someone posts an anti-Bush message because he is sooo much better from that last piece of trash president. Ol' bubba was just a plain embarrassment. Fortunately, he was the only Democrat president during my adulthood. But he was the darling of the left and the press, which is the same. At least now, you don't have to turn on the news and listen to another sordid scandal every week. Of course they all were started by the evil Republican conspirators...give me a break.

Chances are Chica is not a leftist, but is merely regurgitating leftist propaganda. It bothers me that we are so inundated with anti-American news over here and news of our successes are either not presented or given sparse mention. I wish there was a news channel, network that would just present the facts without spin, left or right, but believe me, it doesn't exist. So when people, like Chica, accept what's in the news as the God's honest unquestionable truth, I have to wonder about her critical thought processes. That's all.

I hope this rambling explains things from an American's point-of-view. I've read posts from you that are very reasoning and reasonable. You don't seem anti-American in all your posts and if you are in some, more power to you.

Deibid,

Could it be possible that during the prosecution of a war, that is, America's war on terror, that democratic processes and civil rights take a back seat to victory?!?! Just something to "think" about.

We didn't ask for this war. We were attacked and for God's sake, we are not a nation to sit on our hands, or wring our hands in front of the U.N. and let it happen again. If the moslems would have left us alone and fought battles in their own backyard, we would have been the first to protect their right to be what they are. But no, they had to mess with us. They underestimated us and still underestimate us.

It's hard for Americans to tolerate the brutality of anyone. I hate it, but I want to win this war on terror and go on and spend this nation's energies and resources in spreading freedom and democracy.

Gazpacho---- just so you get one thing straight...Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Good ole Bush used 9/11 as an exuse to attack Iraq...Dont get me wrong, Saddam was a horrible tyrant who never deserved his power...but Read the information, its out there. Or could it be that you dont let yourself understand the truth. President Bush is a disgrace to the people of this country...he does not and has never operated with OUR needs in mind.

Thank you salamanca02. Bush has done so much damage to our country in so little time--and all in the name of patriotism. Sadly, I have no doubt that in time we on the "hated left" will be proven 100% right. I pray it will all be fixable. Sure wish I could drown my sorrows with some vino tinto in a Spanish bar right about now.

Sorry guys, none of it had to do with "patriotism", and nobody has said that it did. 9/11 used as a reason - yep, and a good one. The greatest hope for fighting terrorism is with Islams help. And the greatest hope for that help is a free and democratic Islamic country. Easy? Nope. But it's the only hope for meaningful change. Wishful thinking won't do it - and the desire by the left to actually BLAME Bush for creating terrorism is bizzare at best.

"..he does not and has never operated with OUR needs in mind."

Really? What "needs" are those?

"Sadly, I have no doubt that in time we on the "hated left" will be proven 100% right."

This is what's scrary, I'm afraid that it's more important to the left to be correct about Iraq - than to have success there.

I haven't heard the term "hated left" quoted - any more than I've heard people called "unpatriotic" - beyond the left declaring that opposition to their view is defacto calling them unpatriotic. However, the "hated Bush" seems to have evolved into something worse to them than the mass-murdering Hussein. The left agrees, yeah, Hussein was bad, but getting rid of him was somehow worse I'm glad that I'm not in a position to say that I'm glad Hussein's gone, but not glad that he was removed....

"Sure wish I could drown my sorrows with some vino tinto in a Spanish bar right about now. "

Common ground at last!

Fup

Sorry to get off topic, but Gazpacho who are you to judge who is misguided? Or forgive? I know Chica and she is completely "guided," intelligent, reasonable, and courteous. And Dommo seems to be rather friendly as well. Unlike you - you are condescending, arrogant, and insulting. And you choose political sides like a football team and follow blindly. People like you are dangerous. Inform yourself about world events a little more thoroughly please.

Sorry for that Madridman... if you need to give me a slapdown I understand.