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#77864 - 05/07/04 05:53 PM Embarrassed and Ashamed
Chica Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 12/19/01
Posts: 819
Loc: Madrid
I wish to apologize to those who opened this thinking they were going to read a thread about Spanish politics.

I just felt that I had to publicly announce my embarrassment and shame at the way some of the US troops have behaved and the atrocities that they have committed in the prisons of Irak.

I was in anguish when several weeks ago the Spanish news broadcast the treatment of US citizens who had been killed, burned alive and otherwise mistreated and tortured. Their cadavers desecrated.

It has been to my utmost dismay and embarrassment to see the same horrid and despicable actions taken by our own troops against the Iraki prisioners. Who the he** do they think they are?

I believe in our troops who put their life and limb at stake for the safety of the USA, but actions that have been recently taken by those who so "proudly" represent the USA have absolutely no excuse. They are reprehensible and the "soldiers" who engaged in those acts should be immediately relieved of their duties and be given dishonorable discharges from the military.

Shame! Shame! Shame! mad mad mad

My question to my fellow Americans is... are you getting news of these atrocities? Have you seen pictures? Or is censorship alive and "well" in the land of the "free"? Today the front pages of the major dailies in Spain sported a photograph of a FEMALE US soldier gleefully holding a rope that was tied around the neck of an Iraki prisoner who was lying half naked on the cement floor...as if she were about to walk her dog.

Who is responsible for training these soldiers? Who ever is should also be relieved of his/her duties.

I am thoroughly disgusted and ashamed to know that this is how my countrymen "liberate" other countries. mad

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#77865 - 05/07/04 07:44 PM Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed
MadridMan Offline


Executive Member

Registered: 05/06/00
Posts: 9080
Loc: Madrid, Spain (was Columbus, O...
I'm with you 100%, Chica. It would almost seem as though if you're a world-power, have lots of money and influence that you don't have to follow The Geneva Convention . It states:
Quote:
PART II

GENERAL PROTECTION OF PRISONERS OF WAR

Article 13

Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.
Question: It seems a loophole has been found in that these detainees are apparently NOT consider "Prisoners of War" but rather as "Enemy Combatants". Surely there is some provision somewhere for their protection as well.

Remember back when the war started and the Iraqis captured a number of U.S. Soldiers (actually, they were truck drivers and mechanics if I remember correctly) and their terrified faces were shown on national and international TV? What ever happened to them? Really, what happened to them? Were they killed? Were they released? Did the story get swept under the rug? I'd think that would be a BIG story with either result.

Regarding the recent, shocking photos, WHO WOULD BE DUMB ENOUGH in the first place to be doing these stupid things AND allow their photo to be taken????? confused Were they drunk? Were they under some other influence? I don't believe they were acting under the authority of "higher powers" but rather just bored and stupid and wanted to have some good, clean, American fun. rolleyes I'll bet these same idiots teased the kid with the "lazy eye" on the playground when they were young. Come on. I'd have to guess that with this event alone Mr. Bush could probably start looking now for a new job at the end of the year.

mad MadridMan
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#77866 - 05/07/04 09:48 PM Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
What happened was wrong, and our military is investigating the situation, but to sit here an be the "apologist to the world" on this forum is absurd. Since you didn't do anything, why should you be offering the apology? Of course I know the answer. Its because of the stance taken in reference to our being in Iraq in the first place. Therefore, its a political statement, not a truely remorseful statement.

What also bothers me is that anyone would say that what some of our troops has done has made the whole scene of American bodies being dragged through the streets by an angry crowd is "lessened" because of what happened. You cannot offset something bad by offering something bad in return. Both issues, and situations stand on their own, and don't "balance the books" as I'm hearing said here. Did you speak out on this forum as to how the Americans were butchered and dragged through the streets? No. So why apologize to the world now?

I'm sorry. Both situations are tragic, and those involved in both situations should be punished to the full extent of the law, not have these turned into a political volleyball of self-righteous indignation with an eye on one's own personal political beliefs.

And yes Chica, we aren't living in the middle ages of media here in the US. They don't even censor the BBC, German news, or any of it that is broadcast here via satellite, so we have their offerings to compare to what we see here. There is no "great conspiracy." You might also want to know that our own major media sources have given the issue more coverage than foreign services.

Wolf

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#77867 - 05/07/04 10:02 PM Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed
la maestra Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 03/03/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Tucson, Arizona
I've been thinking about this mess a lot. First, I wonder if what many thought was good old fashioned patriotism was instead the "good old boy" way of getting revenge on an entire group of people who are being lumped together as being the cause of 9/11 by virtue of the fact that they are Muslim.

I wonder if the low life scum who would humiliate, torture and degrade other human beings in this way out of this warped hatred can in any way imagine the hatred of us that brought the terrorists to attack us in the first place. Are they capable of understanding that they just stacked cords of kindling against that fire of hatred by behaving in this sick fashion? Can these brutes understand that Americans could be subjected to the same kinds of abuse in retaliation? Do they understand at all that their behavior has humiliated all Americans as well? I have always gone overseas with the idea in my mind that everything I did or said would be a reflection of all of America because I may be the only American citizen the people I interacted with would ever meet. I am sickened to think that somewhere, someone is thinking that all Americans...including me...could be capable of doing anything as disgusting as what was shown in those photos.

The more I hear about the Iraqi abuse, the more sickened I become. I am ashamed of what we have come to represent in the world because of the actions of the subhumans responsible for the torture. The only bit of light in the cesspool of this matter is the brave man who reported the abuse in the first place. He is apparently the lone voice of reason, morality, compassion, and common sense over there.

I would like to personally apologize to all the people of Iraq for this outrage.

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#77868 - 05/07/04 10:05 PM Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
Regarding Mr. Bush looking for a new job, that may be but perhaps not for this incident:
here's a news story that belies that impression

Quote:
Bush Apology Sparks Torrent of Global Goodwill

Imams: “You Had Us at "Sorry'”

Washington - The recent apology of US President George W. Bush for abuses by American military prison guards continued to reverberate around the globe today, as the White House was again inundated with a flurry of “apology accepted” notes from world media, governmental leaders, and Islamic fundamentalist clerics.

Typical of the responses was a personal note from Syrian president Bashar Al-Assad, who wrote “aww, dude, you know I can't stay mad at you,” saying that the apology had prompted him to immediately dismantle his country's secret nuclear weapons program. In a postscript, Assad added, “good luck to the Rangers this year.”

“Now was that so hard?” joked Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat in an email to Bush. “Now get out of here ya knucklehead, before we have to do one of those awkward man-hugs.”

The apology also prompted an outbreak of gratitude in the Arab street, as hundreds of thousands of Muslims took to the streets Friday in an impromptu demonstration of thanks. In Gaza, a cheering crowd estimated at 30,000 waved American flags and banners reading “No Prablem Bosh” [sic], while in Damascus throngs gathered in the Square of the Martyrs chanting “U-S-A, U-S-A”.

“I used to dream about dying in a glorious fireball of martyrdom,” said Ali Ahmed Amoud, 23, a marcher in the first annual Infidel Appreciation Days parade in Nablus. “But that apology was so nice and sincere, it just seems kind of petty to keep nursing a grudge.”

In Tehran, the ruling council of Iranian clerics ordered a “national day of celebration and family fun” to commemorate the historic apology. “The Great Satan has given our honor back, so it's time to move on and let bygones be bygones,” said Ayatollah Rafinstani in a nationwide radio address. Rafinstani also announced Iran's immediate nuclear disarmament, and cautioned celebrants not to drink and drive.

In Cairo, local clerics were equally enthusiastic and appreciative of Bush's gesture. In his weekly Friday sermon, Egyptian Imam Muqtaba Salim urged followers to show their appreciation by “reaching out and hugging a Zionist.”

“Sure, they're a little pushy and abrasive, but c'mon guys — let's take a deep breath and count to ten before we go all "martydom operations,'” said Salim.

Perhaps the biggest reaction to the Bush apology occured in Saudi Arabia, where leaders of the fundamentalist Wahabbist sect issued a rare commendation of the president.

“It's just been such a catharsis for all of us,” said Imam Abdelkarim Matwalli, prayer leader of the Grand Mosque in Medina, choking back emotion. “All we really ever wanted was a simple "I'm sorry,' and Mr. Bush delivered. Thank you, America.”

The president's apology was no less well-received in Europe, with dozens of newspapers blaring effusive, pro-Bush headlines. The Parisienne Le Monde declared “All Is Forgiven, George” while the Manchester Guardian lionized Bush as “an Apologizer for the Ages”; the tabloid Sun carried a simple “Dubya, We Lubya” above a flattering photo of the president festooned with garlands.

The apology also appeared to have created a thaw in the United States' sometimes icy relationship with continental political leaders. French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhardt Schroeder issued a joint communique welcoming the United States “back in the fold of civilized nations,” and vowed to introduce a UN resolution asserting the US right to exist, following scheduled week-long pro-Bush demonstrations across Europe.

Newly elected Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Zapatero also commended the President's contrition, and said that “I would gladly once again pledge Spanish troops to the War on Terror, if the whole terror thing ever becomes a problem again.”

Domestic reaction was generally favorable, led by Congressional Democrats who drafted a resolution prasing the President's “bold, thoughtful groveling for world peace,” and calling on Bush to “stop beating yourself up.” Progressive websites such as DemocraticUnderground, Daily Kos and BartCop urged readers to “forgive, forget, and send a nice thank you card to the White House.”

Despite the outbreak of world geopolitical harmony, not everyone was satisfied with Bush's overture. In a scathing OpEd in today's New York Times, columnist Thomas Friedman demanded an additional apology from the President.

Yes it was reprehensible and a bad decision to place individuals in charge of prisoners who have not been psychologically trained to be prison guards. That said, I think that there is a double standard at play here regarding world revulsion at atrocities. Not too long ago several of our security contractors helping to rebuild Iraq were burned alive, ripped apart, and hung from a bridge by Arabs in Fallujah, yet there wasn't any worldwide demand for an apology, was there? frown
_________________________
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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#77869 - 05/08/04 06:35 AM Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed
Chica Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 12/19/01
Posts: 819
Loc: Madrid
Wolf wrote:
Quote:
What happened was wrong, and our military is investigating the situation, but to sit here an be the "apologist to the world" on this forum is absurd. Since you didn't do anything, why should you be offering the apology? Of course I know the answer. Its because of the stance taken in reference to our being in Iraq in the first place. Therefore, its a political statement, not a truely remorseful statement.
Please Wolf, donīt act so defensive and go back and read my post. I did not apologize for the atrocities. I know I did not do anything wrong. I apologized to those who opened the thread thinking it was going to be about Spanish politics being that I put the post in the Political Commentary section on an All Spain message board.

I did not, in anyway apologize for the inhumane treatment. I expressed my absolute shame and embarrassment at the despicable acts. Political statement? NO. Remorseful? YES. I made no reference to whether or not I thought the USA should be in Irak.

Quote:
What also bothers me is that anyone would say that what some of our troops has done has made the whole scene of American bodies being dragged through the streets by an angry crowd is "lessened" because of what happened. You cannot offset something bad by offering something bad in return. Both issues, and situations stand on their own, and don't "balance the books" as I'm hearing said here. are tragic, and those involved in both
No one is offsetting anything Wolf. I never said one was less than the other. I said that I was horrified (well, OK, my actual word was anguished) by one and EQUALLY horrified by the other. You didnīt "hear" anything "said". I implore you to go back and read my post.

Quote:
Did you speak out on this forum as to how the Americans were butchered and dragged through the streets? No. So why apologize to the world now?
Well, actually, no I didnīt. Did I have to before putting up this post? I did say in this post how I was anguished about what I saw. Should I elaborate on that in order to justify my post about shame?

Did you speak out on this forum about such atrocities? Sorry that I donīt have as much free time to keep up with all the posts on this message board. Lucky you.

Quote:

I'm sorry. Both situations are tragic, and those involved in both situations should be punished to the full extent of the law, not have these turned into a political volleyball of self-righteous indignation with an eye on one's own personal political beliefs.
So, what are my own personal political beliefs Wolf? I never suggested anything about political volleyball or tit for tat. I never made a blanket statement that all the troops are guilty of such acts... I said SOME. And yes, they must be punished, in your words, to the fullest extent of the law.

Quote:
And yes Chica, we aren't living in the middle ages of media here in the US. They don't even censor the BBC, German news, or any of it that is broadcast here via satellite, so we have their offerings to compare to what we see here. There is no "great conspiracy." You might also want to know that our own major media sources have given the issue more coverage than foreign services.
Thanks for the condescending tone Wolf. I never suggested that you are living in the middle ages of media. Perhaps I wasnīt clear enough in my question. What I wanted to know was if the AMERICAN press was portraying the same kind of images that the FOREIGN PRESS (well, specifically, the Spanish press). I am well aware that foreign newscasts such as the BBC, German news, etc are available via satellite. However, I donīt believe that the majority of the US population subscribes to satellite TV which is why it was important for me to know if regular over-the-air American stations were broadcasting such news.

Who said anything about conspiracy? And what foreign coverage are you referring to? The coverage that you see piped into your livingroom via satellite or are you also referring to newspapers and other newsbroadcasts around the world?

Sheesh Wolf. Generally I find your posts interesting. But please, when you post, make sure you understand the essence of the post that you are replying to!

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#77870 - 05/08/04 08:06 AM Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
You are right. It is a shame.

If we have to teach the citizens of a former dictatorship to live in democracy, we must first give example. Torturing prisoners is not what a democracy's army does.

But this has an easy solution: court and jail those who gave the orders (or participated without orders) to torture the prisoners.

In every army there are people who think they are above the law. Let's teach them that there are laws and rules that can't be broken in a democracy.

Fernando

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#77871 - 05/08/04 09:15 AM Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed
filbert Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 399
Loc: London
Quote:
[Yes it was reprehensible and a bad decision to place individuals in charge of prisoners who have not been psychologically trained to be prison guards. That said, I think that there is a double standard at play here regarding world revulsion at atrocities. Not too long ago several of our security contractors helping to rebuild Iraq were burned alive, ripped apart, and hung from a bridge by Arabs in Fallujah, yet there wasn't any worldwide demand for an apology, was there?
I think the Arabs in Fallujah who comitted this atrocity would come under the category rabble/criminals. I wouldn't expect apologies from the type of person who would do this. However people do not expect the servants of the most powerful Western democracy to engage in acts of torture/brutality. This is why people thought an apology was needed. To his credit President Bush gave that apology...
_________________________
An English Bookseller in Madrid

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#77872 - 05/08/04 10:36 AM Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Flibert,

It was an apology that had to be made from our government. It was done, and it should have been done. There was no excuse for the behavior of these individuals, and they should be prosecuted for their actions.

Well said.

Wolf

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#77873 - 05/08/04 08:46 PM Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed
writejudi Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 7
Loc: Los Angeles
<<Bush Apology Sparks Torrent of Global Goodwill>>

BookLady, where did this terrific tongue-in-cheek article come from? Bush only wishes...

The Red Cross told people in the US government a year ago about what was going on in the prisons (not just in Abu Ghraib either) and NOTHING WAS DONE. Rumsfeld has known since last December or January but says he just read the report, and only the executive summary of it, not the entire report. If that's true, he should resign. If he did read it earlier (and I think he did), it was his obligation to tell the congress and the president. He did neither. Either way, he should resign.

This is a horrible black eye for the US that will be remembered for decades to come. That our soldiers were "just following orders," as some of their family members have said, is no excuse. The judge at Nurenberg said it was no excuse for the Nazis and it is no excuse for these soldiers now. We are all responsible for our own actions.

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