Ummm, Rumsfeld knew it and did nothing to stop it?

As the highest authority responsible for US soldiers he should have informed US president and he should have done something to stop the tortures.

What the hell was he thinking about? How could these torture episodes have ended in anything positive for USA?

It only erodes US international position in this conflict, gives arguments to those against western countries, to terrorists and harms any peace plan for Iraq.

Fernando

So before this turns overwhelmingly into a 'Rumsfeld,' or 'Bush' bashing, let's remember a few things:

1. the ARMY handles this as a court proceeding, meaning, *people are innocent until proven guilty,* *AND* the premature releasing of evidence would *NOT* be justice for the sick individuals guilty of this crime, and that still deserve a fair trial. Show me a court case, civil or criminal, where the evidence is 'shown' to the people *WHILE* it is still in development.

2. None of the staff of the department of defense that we saw sitting at the tables and being questioned by both the senate and the congress had seen the images *until* the airing of 60 minutes II. It was common knowledge that images and video existed, but during a war the premature release of such material can endanger *AMERICAN* troops, whether you agree they should be in Iraq or not. Rumsfeld should have sought out the aid of Bush and the senate/congress to help control the presentation of the information, but again, in order to protect the rights of potentially innocent soldiers the decision was made to let the ARMY do what it *has always done* in way of courts martial. That *IS* the law.

3. *THE DAY AFTER* allegations of prisoner mistreatment were reported, by a SOLDIER, which would be difficult for that individual to do, investigations were opened.

4. As Madridman points out, terrorists are not given status as 'enemy soldiers' by the geneva convention accords, which is a loophole that has been cited by many. However, the USA has its own ethical code for military prisoners that *FAR* exceeds the mandates offered in the geneva convention. It has not been proven yet, but the individuals guilty of these crimes were likely not given orders from the higher links in the chain of command, even if 'softening up' of the prisoners had been ordered.

5. Abu Ghraib was a *dangerous* prison anyway. Very dangerous and militant combatants, criminals, rapists, murderers, etc., were stacked alongside *innocents* that were being threatened daily by the other criminals to not cooperate with American forces. Fights broke out daily between them, and some were killed in mini-riots within the prison. Remember, there is a war going on in Iraq, and as their own courts cannot always handle criminal court issues, it is the responsibility of the USA and coalition forces to assist. In war, unfortunately, *innocent* people get caught up in it. It is a fact.

6. What those soldiers did is horrible, sick, twisted, and gut-wrenching. Really it is. Everyone agrees with this. And using the fact that the enemy would do much worse, *HAS* done much worse, to international press, coalition forces, red cross representatives, military contract personnel, UN personnel, and others, who are attempting to rebuild that country, is not a valid arguement because you cannot use the abhorrent actions of one to justify the equal actions of another. *BUT*, this is a catch 22 because we simply have a higher moral ethic than the enemy combatants. And that is a *FACT*.

chica:
You alluded to a conspiracy when you wrote:
You've got to be kidding. If you think europe is so 'open' and government hands-off, why don't you read the definition of 'Socialism.'

writejudi:
Rumsfeld resign? Bush fire Rumsfeld? How absolutely absurd. They only just read the report because information is *STILL* coming in. Of course they knew bits and pieces along the way as the investigation was taking place. This will be a black eye on America because people like you will force it to live on and apologize for being American until you're blue in the face. Well have at it. I, for one, am more proud than ever to be American because at least we have leaders willing to take the fight to the bad guys.

Booklady:
Just so nobody thinks I am without humor, I did find that article Booklady posted to be humourous. But I am also saddened a little by it.

How about the apology for all the hostages taken? How about the apology for those 4 security workers Booklady mentions? How about Iraqi's step up and take the baton by June 30th? How about France, Russia, and China come out and face up to the "Food for Oil" investigations?

:wq!

Megia, excellent post.

Yes that ludicrous article I posted was a bit of "black humor" sent to me by a friend. I thought it fit well in this discussion. I figured those that know me well would know that as a librarian I have been trained to always cite my sources and if you look through my previous posts I always post a URL and cite the name of the writer when posting "real" news. Like you, I thought it sad as well.

What stuck me as quixotic in this thread was the assumption that we here in the U.S. were unaware of what was happening in the Iraqi prison, when the opposite is true. You just have to do a "U.S. news" Google search and that is all you read, and the press has gone berserk showing those disgraceful photos. Also a search of the major TV outlets in the net not only provide you with the photos but many have short video clips of this story.

My point about the worldwide double standard was not that I expected the Fallujah or other Islamic extremists to be ashamed, as our President and the American people are about what happened, but the lack of worldwide disgust at what occurred just a few weeks earlier to those American contractors.

Unlike the worldwide horror expressed now, such did not happen when the horror of what happened to those four Americans hit the newstand. Their story, equally horrendous, or moreso given that they were tortured and then killed, did not solicit the moral outrage that it warranted from Islamic moral leaders, and world leaders, nor the worldwide press. My newspaper, a subsidiary of the NY Times had a couple of paragraphs and that was it. That is what I find distressing.

Booklady, I totally agree with you, and you furthered a great point. I do not know you too well, but I did catch your sarcasm.

It's obvious we are held to a higher standard than others in the world. What a nice compliment! More is expected of us, yet there's the rub.

However, as you stated, it is simply a catch 22. There will be no world condemnation of atrocities commited against innocents there because mean-spirited hypocrites will say our, and coalition, people are getting what they deserve for being over there in the first place.

Well I would argue that the rape, torture, terror, sucide advocates are getting what they deserve. They get to run and hide for the rest of their miserable collective existence. They will die tired.

I've seen some of the photographs of the atrocities against Iraqi prisoners, and I just can't figure out what's going on. If the pictures portray and accurate account of what's going on over there, then the soldiers are an entirely different breed then those that I knew and know. But one thing I do know, I sure don't trust the press to inform us accurately of any event. Also, if political prisoners such as terrorists are being held there, it would seem that security was way to laxed if they permitted pictures inside the prison to be released. For this reason alone, the higher ups in the Department of Defense should be fired and IMHO tried for treason.

Wolf, I agree with your take on Chica. How convenient that she doesn't have enough time to protest against atrocities commited against American troops. I'm sure it's not high on her priority list.

Madridman, you seem a little quick on the trigger agreeing with the left. This is not the first time I noticed it, but I've witheld commenting about it before. I can see the types of problems now you prevented by witholding your opinions in the past.

Megia, military justice does not mean innocent until proven guilty. This applies to civil law, but the UCMJ is a different animal. I know this because I was subjected to it for many years.

I hope soon we can get at the bottom concerning the facts of these photos. If they do portray what the press says they do, then they truly indicate some extreme weaknesses in the people we pay to defend this country. It really wouldn't matter if the weaknesses are a result of the arrogance of lack of accountability or unforgiveable ignorance.

What take is that?? Gazpacho, you sure are quick to point out what you think is high on someone´s priority list without even knowing the person. How do you know what I do in my time? Just because I don´t post my life on this board does not mean that I don´t have priorities off it. (Sorry Madridman... I know how you would love for this forum to be everyone´s priority! )

My comment was not a political commentary. Perhaps I should have not put it in the political commentary thread, but just didn´t see any other place that I should have posted it. Neither left nor right nor socialist was mentioned. Heck, I didn´t even mention President Bush. All I did was merely express my dismay at atrocities. It didn´t lessen the atrocities committed against the American citizens nor take away from what my feelings were when I saw the atrocities committed to them weeks earlier.

I am sorry if my question about news coverage in the States raised some of your hackles. That was not my intent either. Very few of you know me personally so I cannot expect you to understand the intent to my post. However, I certainly didn´t think you would interpret it to be malicious either. It was an honest emotional post. I suppose that there are those who look for a political battle wherever they can find it.

Booklady was right, it would have taken a quick google search and I would have answered my questions before posting them here. But even gazpacho states:

So, maybe my news coverage question wasn´t without merit? I have worked in television and have seen how emphasis can be placed and spun to suit the media´s needs. It´s also too bad that some of you interpret my post to suggest a conspiracy theory. Again, not my intent.

But, I realize that I can´t force you to understand what I believe as you don´t know me. So, keep on reading into things that aren´t there and walk away feeling self righteous. Whatever makes you feel good.

Gazpacho wrote: I'm not at all sure how my comments above show sympathy towards the left, right, or otherwise.

Question to Gazpacho: Does the fact that one is RIGHT always mean they are right/correct? I think not. It's not exclusive unto itself. The U.S. government is most certainly on the RIGHT - probably further RIGHT than any US government has been in a lonnng time. Franco was RIGHT too, remember? Was he right/correct all the time? The whole RIGHT/LEFT argument is tiresome and, in my mind, holds no weight. What's fair and just IS what holds weight. Was it fair/just to hang the bodies of US Servicemen in the streets? Of course not. That's no issue here. We're not talking about an-eye-for-an-eye justification... which leads only to total annihilation... we're talking about humane treatment on our and everyone's part.

Seriously, MadridMan

Let me first add my disheartened disgust at what those fools did in Iraq to those prisoners. We're horrified because we believe that we're better than those who would do such things. Iraqi's have been asked to take a leap of faith in moving towards democracy with us as temporary stewards. There's no question that the leap will now have be far greater.

For those of you that try and implicate the country - Bush - or Rumsfield in the activities, my guess is that your conclusions were built before this ever happened. I also figure that you know better. The US has been universally revolted - including the president. Everyone knows that this served - and serves no good purpose and has now placed those who already have a tough job on the ground there, at greater risk. Those that have given their lives (including Spaniards) for the higher ideal deserve better.

How the US reacts as a nation to this will tell the tale. And so far fellow citizens have done me proud. They have been universally angry (even beyond those of you wishing to take political advantage) - and the leader of a massively powerful nation has bowed to apology for what would be considered (sadly) common and minor abuse in much of the world.

"" I'm with you 100%, Chica. It would almost seem as though if you're a world-power, have lots of money and influence that you don't have to follow The Geneva Convention.""

Geez MM, you make it sound like policy - and common among those that serve. That mistake was made in Vietnam - and should not be made today. Those that are serving honorably - some now laying in VA hospitals with missing limbs - don't deserve it.

We have got to look unflinchingly at what happened - and correct it. I believe that we will - and that process is already underway....

Fup

Sorry, Chica. I've decided to move this/your thread to the Non-Spain Discussion category.

Saludos, MadridMan

No apology necessary Madridman. Thanks for moving it.

It´s where I should have posted it in the first place as all I was doing was posting heartfelt feelings, not making a political commentary.