To Quote from the article: “He’s not so much a pure progressive as a maverick populist,” said Katrina vanden Huevel, editor of The Nation. Still, she regards him as a valuable counterweight to the likes of Limbaugh.

“This is his moment,” vanden Huevel said. “Scandalous corporate abuses, economic decline across the heartland ... these are his issues, and he speaks to them in humorous and effective terms.”

America needs a voice who is willing to do something about the problems and Micheal Moore is one of those voices. His books and movies are some of the most read and seen in europe. I now live in Spain and hardly a day goes by when Im not asked why there are so many murders in the USA. And it is true, there seems to be more murders by guns in the states yet the people of Canada have more guns and hardly any crime. We have developed into a society of fear. I had two americans visiting from Lake Michigan who keep a years supply of can food, duck tape and plastic for sealing the windows should biological war happen. They live in fear and they are not the only people I have met who live that way and believe that biological warfare and urban terrorism is going to happen. God forbid if you are a person of color or of muslim religion and live in the USA because rightnow people are now so afraid that they distrust anyone who is different. What Micheal Moore is trying to get across is that Americans live in FEAR. And, he is one of only a few people willing to take the risk and get people out from in front of their TV's and do something about America. Most people and espically politicans would rather have Americans live in FEAR because then they are less likely to question authority.

Cali,

It's great seeing you back! I was kind of hit and miss for quite sometime myself.

Downey,

If Moore produced an honest documentary it would deal with the truths. He didn't even deal with the statements you made, he opted to use fear tactics by misrepresentation of facts, through editing techniques, to fuel paranoia, mistrust, and fear in people. In essence, he did more to create more fear and a wall between people than he did good by "exposing" what wasn't even the truth.

By using his offering as a guide to friends so they "undestand the US," you're playing right into the hands of those who would cause these very fears and differences. There's nothing they want more than us reacting like that, so we can help them peddle their conspiracy theories even if they don't even deal with facts.

Yes, there are those that live in total paranoia here in the US. Yes, there are those that feel they are being treated unfairly because of their ethnic and cultural backgrounds. Yes, there are those in America who would exploit them, or harm them, but is it all that different in Spain? Have you read some of the posts out here about aliens in Spain? Have you read about what has and is happening to aliens in Germany? It goes on and on, nation after nation, but not just here, even though Moore and people would like us to believe it, as long as it puts money in his pocket.

Yes, we could outlaw guns, but would that really take them out of the hands of the criminals? All we'd do is end up with another black marketing tool for foreign criminal organizations to smuggle them in along with drugs, etc.... to create more crime.

Since guns kill, outlaw them? If someone attacks another person with a baseball bat and kills them, do we outlaw baseball bats? How about cars? Since people are killed by cars, do we outlaw them? It's an endless cycle of things that could be outlawed, but when does it stop, and where?

No. Moore's offering is not something to show friends in Spain. Of course, if you believe everything is a conspiracy here in the US, and everyone runs around in constant fear for their lives, why not? Even though its a total lie, you can at least get them to listen even if its a pack of lies.

Wolf

Murder is five times more frequent in the US.

US 0.05 murders per 1000 people
Spain 0.01 murders per 1000 people

In 2000 there were 494 murders in Spain, only 97 were commited with a firearm--less than 0.01 per 1000. In 1999, there were 12,658 murders in the US, 8,259 were commited with guns--0.03 per 1000 people.

The US is the #1 country for rape with 0.32 per 1000. Spain is still relatively high with 0.14 per 1000.

Check out the site below for more statistics likes this.

http://www.nationmaster.com

HERES YOUR LINK WOLF

Downey,

I'm afraid you totally missed the point. You can put up facts like statistics and they work for both you and I. But when you say that Moore's work is fact, that's supporting a lie. His work is a distortion of the facts, and has absolutely nothing to do with the statistics you are referring to.

You indicated that you use Moore's work as a way of "showing people" how bad it is in the US, but you're not offering facts. You're offering up something that's a lie, and passing it off as fact. Therein lies the difference between your view and mine.

Am I troubled by the statistics in the US? Of course, but remember this, we have suffered under the load of crime and distaff for a long time. Spain is only coming into this problem as a "newbie" to a democratic government. Their problems will continue to increase, and it's been pointed out by many Spaniards that it concerns them, in other threads.

By the way, if you go past the murders, to robberies, you will find that Spain actually exceeds the US. You might say that it all starts somewhere.

Please! If you want to tell people how terrible you feel the US is, be my guest. But use honest resources to characterize it. Obviously Moore's offering isn't.

Wolf

Downey,

After doing more research into the crimes you reported, I find that the US is ranked 9th in rape, and Canada's figures are even worse than ours. Why are you categorizing the US as the worst country in the world. We aren't first in any of those categories, including murder. Spain is in a 3 way tie for 13th. Why make it sound like we're so horrible, and Spain is perfect? Have I missed something that you're trying to tell us?

Facts my friend, not splintered statements that don't show all the details of what the actual figures reflect, or insidious offerings like Moore's to make a point. Use it all, or leave it alone. Its just that simple.

But thanks for the link. I've used it before and believe its a good one. It shows a great deal about the inaccuracies directed at the US.

Wolf

Hello everybody!
I just want to draw some lines about fairness.
First, the American Community awarded Moore’s documentary and to say 'is trash' or ‘is a bunch of lies’ is to deny good taste. It is not fair
Moore is an artist. Picasso painted the Guernica, and Moore filmed this movie. Some people said the Guernica was trash, but nowadays a copy is display in the press-conference room in the UN Headquarters in New York. Most of you were not able to see it on the TV last year because a particular country asked to have it cover.
This is not a matter of being pro US or not. It is a matter of asking why it happens. Moore tries to deny some stereotypes such as racial diversity or being a large country as the reasons for such violence. Canada is an example of a country very similar to USA, and they do not have the social problems US faces.
What Moore is pointing out is the Americans like guns maybe because they are scared, and because of the same reason, they exceeds the limits sometimes of what is democratic, and what is ethical. If you have a scared population, citizens are going to ask for protection from whom? The government. And the government is going to draw laws.
You may think that because is the law, then it is good, but there was a time when to have slaves was legal in the US, but it does not mean it was right.
The Patriot and Home Security Acts are laws denounced by several human rights organizations within the USA, and recently, the Brazilian government protested in light of fingerprinting in the US airports. Would be that possible in a society that is not scared?
Another point Moore is trying to make is that the media somehow collaborate in creating this fear in the public. The Killer African Bees, that follow the same path as the slaves had to do, is another example of ‘subliminal persuasion.’ The show ‘COPS’ is another.
And this is a fact. It is not fair to say, "it is trash" or "it is a lie."
Another interesting point is Mr. Heston walking away in front of the cameras.
"Quién calla otorga" says a Spanish refrán.
Finally, Moore is American, an American artist. The Oscar for “Bowling for Columbine” is a challenge to the American Society. It has changed the minds of millions of Americans and non-Americans. To say that the opinion of millions of Americans, including its most celebrated artists, ‘is trash’ is not only unfair, but also irresponsible. I respect some of your opinions but I do not share them.
Why Americans do not feel safe?

fran,

Obviously your mind is made up and facts won't enter into your decision. IF you had read the article that showed the relationships of events that related to the Heston move you talked about, you'd have seen it was a contrived way for Moore to create a lie about what happened. But, if you're steeped in the conspiracy illusion you wouldn't bother reading it, and obviously didn't, did you? Why "muddy" opinions with facts, when the facts would burst the bubble of conspiracy?

Yes, the US did have slavery and it was wrong. So, tell me... which countries in the world didn't during specific eras? Obviously your statement disregarded all of history except one little snippet of it because it served your purpose. For a Spaniard to speak out against slavery in America, and not mention their own conquests, and slavery issues from the past is totally the words of a hypocrite. But once again, how can you point out the "Evil Empire" without admitting to your own nation having had feet of clay?

As for the issues about people coming into the US, and the "human rights violations" that you indicate, I suggest you bring this subject up with the surviving families of people who died on 9-11, not bring it to a forum like this, because I personally don't think that anyone coming into the US has the right to "dictate" what their rights are.

In other words, if you don't like the way its being done, don't bother coming here. Rest assured, if the Spanish government decided to "fingerprint" people coming into Spain, I sure as hell wouldn't have any problem allowing them to do so. After all, I am a visitor to their country, and if that's their rules, I have two options. Either live by them, or stay out of their country.

Of course, if the person has a "problem" over fingerprints, I begin to wonder why they are so concerned about it, and would want to know more about them before they ever stepped foot in my nation.

Please! Don't look for bashing issues where they don't exist, and deal with truth, not fictional misrepresentations as to how evil the US is. There are a lot of people on this forum who don't take kindly to it, and if you read the threads very carefully, you'll find out the vast majority are not Spain bashers. I can only wonder if these issues don't come up because of envy.

Wolf

Fran,

Maybe the reason that we don't feel safe in the U.S. is because of the 911 attack!?! But fear is not what causes us to want gun rights. The "right to bear arms" is part of our constitution, and surprisingly, some Americans think that we should adhere to our own constitution. What an odd concept?

I'm not a strong gun supporter but I don't fear the kind of citizen who legally owns a gun. I fear much more the kind of self-righteous, socialist, elitist thinking that our liberals proclaim, that they can produce better laws than our founding fathers. They haven't got an ounce of the intellectualism and not an iota of the integrity that these great men had. They are only concerned with gaining more power, and gun grabbing is the type of demagogery that they believe empowers them.

If people here in the U.S. are insecure I can't imagine that we are so different than any other country. I don't personally like this new homeland stupidity. It appears to be handled by the typical moronic bureaucrats that cheapen our democracy here, as they do in every free country. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of intelligence from the people who are currently running the program. They seem to be stumbling all over themselves in an attempt to be politically correct. That is: Mustn't racially profile anyone. And when it comes down to it, the terrorist of 911 won because they forced us to change our way of life.

No, things in the U.S. aren't perfect. But a person like Michael Moore, if he weren't so intellectually lazy, and arguably dishonest, could find countries much more atrociously run than the U.S. Where was he when Saddam was brutalizing his people? How about complaining about human right violations in other countries? I just can't see my country as the mindlessly cruel monster that it is portrayed in Europe and by Mr. Moore, and I have to the same conclusion as Wolf, it must be pure unadultrated envy.

hmmm...about time for my two cents... i think to say that the person who started this thread was looking to start a fight is dead wrong, he was asking for opinions on the documentary and supporting his own. But I don't so much want to talk about the movie so much as to talk about the state of the US, and in my opinion Moore´s take on that was, in many ways, accurate. And why was Moore talking about the US, as opposed to criticizing another country? I suppose it is because he is from the US, and the things that go on there bother him and affect him. And because perhaps he sees things worthy of criticism. Every time the US is criticised, it isn't necessarily anti-americanism. Things need to be said;problems addressed.
I think his take on the shootings, showing everyone flabbergasted by them and showing that it could be the undercurrent of violence in the US and the high availability of guns was again, accurate. I think showing the economic hardship of the mother who was trying to make a living (and not alone because of the financial situation and the government's -solution-) was also poignant. I also see the US as a place bombarded by the media. Fear is a good way to stay in control of the people, and yes, now, post 9.11 the fear has other faces, but even before then we are taught to fear neighborhoods, certain types of people. Why should we go through life so afraid... why can't we spread the wealth throughout the world instead of exploiting every country we can?... well that's about as far as my rant goes... i am from the us and i would like to be prouder of it.. and i am proud of people like michael moore who want to see it improved and rid it of corrupt politicians. peace

Seems about time to do it, no? Everyone has thrown in their 2 cents and then some.

I'd also like to mention to those who are reading my words now that if these kinds of discussions bother you (as they do me) then don't venture inside. I must admit that the way this entire message board is leaning towards the political edge is making me uneasy. Yes, this is the Non-Spain Discussion forum. Fine. But let's try to keep our heads.

homelessdophin may have had a point in that the original poster may have only wanted to start a fight and promote his/her own points of view as "the way it should be". Well... not sure about that one way or the other but I think we're all growing weary of this thread.

Time to lock it up, throw away the key, and move on with life. Don't believe everything you see, hear, or read. Be well and be happy, everyone.

Saludos, MadridMan