Thank you MM. As soon as I read your post that you were in a meditation class instead of watching the media extraveganza Friday night and also your comments about humanity the first day, I knew how differently we are each feeling pain over these events. I for one get turned off by some chat rooms as we all are not so eloquent that we can say exactly what we feel without it being misunderstood by someone else so I've hesitated getting involved in this thread. I love my country but I too feel that I am a citizen of the world first and I don't understand why no one in mainstream media is talking about the true moral consequence of retaliation. All the rhetoric about faith and God and rallying to defend "freedom" but unfortunately that what terroristic zealots think they are doing too. I lived in Afghanistan for 4 years and believe me, there is no way they understand global concepts. The Russians came in and destroyed their country and left it in the hands of fanatics.They were tribal,some nomadic,some itinerant and they went about their lives bothering no one and nobody would've even noticed if they had a communist government accept for their strategic location. In 1971 I sat in a tea house near Kandahar talking to an Afghan truck driver who just happened to have a Russian missile on his truck to take to Iraq. The next day he probably had watermelons on the truck.He had no idea the ramifications of such a thing. Put Tibet in the Middle East near some oil and we probably would've cared alot more about them. I hope this doesn't offend those of you who have lost loved ones.I've cried so many tears for you all and as I work in NYC often, I have associates who have been directly affected, but we must not replace our anguish with anger and revenge.They are poison.

Beckham,

I suggest you go back and read your history books, instead of looking at the pictures. The carnage in Europe and the Asian theater is what drew the U.S. into WWII. We chose to stay out of it, until we were bombed at Pearl Harbor.

As for Ireland, it remained "neutral," since it's too strong of roots to the Catholic Church heirarchy in Rome was sympathetic to the Fascists. So, don't refer to us as "drawing you into another war." The Irish government was content to allow 6 million Jews to be exterminated because it "wasn't their war."

As for the A-bombs, rest assured, they actually saved lives. According to documentation that the Japanese government has now released, they planned on putting millions of elderly, along with women and children on the beaches when the Allies landed. Children as young as six years old! They were willing to sacrifice millions of lives, knowing full well that the allied forces would hesitate at shooting women and children who were charging at them with spears. Gawd! You'd condone that over the two bombs?

The Japanese indicated they anticipated well over FIVE MILLION casualties in those efforts alone, in two invasions. The reason? It would slow our armies, and they could then stop us from advancing quickly because we wouldn't be able to pick our way through the bodies.

The allied forces estimated they would lose about a half a million men in just the initial assaults, before they even began to move inland. That was the potential losses for each of three invasions.

As for the treatment of people throughout Asia, they were to become "slaves" to the Japanese, who not only felt superior to them, but felt they were a "sub-human" entity. Their murder of millions of people in the nations they invaded is well documented. This was acceptable too?

Now... tell me again about the bomb. But tell the story right. Your point of view is totally without merit.

As for your claim to be "Catholic," I doubt that very much. You may have been born Catholic, but the doctrines of the church do not indicate your cavalier attitude for the thousands that died in the U.S. is okay, because it's the luck of the draw.

Do I want a peaceful settlement of these issues? Of course. But we cannot allow these incidents to go unchallenged, just because you don't give a damn about human life.

Wolf

MadridMan,

What am I missing here? The terrorists who carried out these missions don't want world peace. They want to kill every living Christian and Jew on the face of the earth, to purify it. Yet you advocate surrendering to this demand, and waiting while they go from town to town, slicing everyone's throat? When they get to Columbus, let me know how you feel about it then, because you can rest assured, if we don't fight back, they will be visiting you someday, and it won't be to share a night on the town, or watch OSU play football.

The "war" as it's so inappropriately called, is a war against terrorism. If nations protect these people, support them, and channel them out into the rest of the world with enough money to carry out terrorist activities, you'd sit back and say we should turn the other cheek, and let it continue? My God! Even the majority of Muslims are being threatened by these people. The population of Afghanistan was dramatically reduced when the Taliban won their war, because they executed the men, women, and children of every other faith other than their own. Then they set off to kill any Moslem person who didn't subscribe, or submit to their fanatical point of view.

As for the U.S. burying their head in the sand, we have been following the world lead. We did no more, or less, than any other nation, in helping one another.

As for world hunger, and people dying around the world in civil wars, etc, let's face facts. It isn't the U.S. that is delinquent in their duty. It's almost every civilized nation in the world,including the U.S., and in many cases, even the governments of these under developed countries who would wage war against their own people, and us... that stops civilization from helping them.

One other thing you should remember. "If" the U.S. does go into Afghanistan to get bin Laden, the entire Moslem world may turn against us. That's hypocrisy!

It would be like Italy going to war against Great Britain, because there were attacks against the IRA in Northern Ireland. But that's acceptable now because you'd fear confrontation?

If that's going to be an acceptable way to live in this world, I'm not buying it. As individuals, nations, and a coalition, we have to put an end to these threats against the innocents of the world. When that's in check, we "all" have to take a good look at how we can help each other. It's not a check that the U.S. has to pay alone.

Wolf

What happened on the 11th was very sad, but no, it was no more tragic than any other tragedies that occur every day. Did you know 100,000 southern Sudanese starved to death in one year? That was in 1998.

There was obviously a reason for what happened, and though it was not acceptable,
it should make us take a step back and pay more attention to what we are doing in the rest of the world. I have heard a few people talking about those reasons this happened, but I have yet to hear what I think is even more important. How is this going to shape our interactions and foreign policies in the future? At the very least, this should be a chance for us to reevaluate how we have handled things. We have a consistent history of meddling in other peoples' affairs and supporting nutcases like Sadam, Mobutu, Noriega,and yes, Bin Ladden (for ten years -though no one appears to want to deal with that issue). Can you imagine what would happen if foreign forces were responsible for us starving or for overthrowing our government? This is a wake up call that those decisions affect our very life and death as individuals and certainly the lives of other people. We are still bombing Iraq and not expressing much compassion for the deaths of innocent people who are killed and starving from the sanctions. We helped put that idiot in power and now the Iraqis can't openly oppose him or they get killed.

That makes people very angry. I did often notice in europe that people would attack me personally for their problems with the governments economic policies. they seemed unable to distinguish me from the actions of the government and big business. I couldn't entirely blame them, because I was fairly ignorant of what was really going on, and I am not exactly out marching against the political decisions with which I disagree. I am much more informed than I used to be, and make a point to read the news of other countries to get another perspective, but still....

The WTC was painful not only because of what happened, but because we have had the sense that we were invincible and that everything would always be okay. I still hear a lot of people that appear to think it will all "go away." It won't. I don't think you combat terrorism by being sweet and kind. What happened is NOT okay, but what are we going to take away form this? I hope it is an awareness of our place in the world community and a realization that the lives of innocents here and abroad are equally precious.

Karen,

Based on the present political situation in Afghanistan, the people you met are probably dead. They would have been amongst the first to be executed after all the "non-Muslim" population. They weren't extremists.

As for the "tea," you would be executed there today just for thinking you had a right to have it in public.

I think about the eight people presently in Afghanistan as part of a mission to help the people, and feed them. How they are possibly facing a death penalty because they may have inadvertantly been there at the wrong time. How the Taliban is holding them hostage. Then I wonder how much help you can give a terrorist government, when they will kill you without any emotion what-so-ever.

As for the "extranvaganza," as you put it, that was a fund raiser to help the families of those who died. Apparently you didn't recognize that fact. You'd say that people should care for one another, then say that what was done, in caring was wrong? Isn't that a misguided double standard?

In your view, my wife was wrong then, when she made over 700 red, white, and blue ribbons, and put them out in the company where she works, and collected over $2,000 for the survivors of those who died? She took two days of vacation to do it, and payed for the ribbons out of her own pocket. I guess you'd say she's a fool. But, regardless of what you say, I'm damned proud of her, and what she did. I'm proud that there was a telethon to help the survivors of those who died at the WTC. That money is going to help all the people, from all nations, not just the U.S. I'm proud of Julia Roberts, who even donated two million dollars to the effort. I'm also saddened, because all of it had to be done.

As for the link of consciousness I use, I prefer prayer over meditation. It got me through the Viet Nam war, and seems to work pretty well. I guess I never thought about telling one of my kids to "go to their room and meditate." I always told them to "go to their room, and pray for guidance."

But, if you want to remove God from this thing, how can you justify Jihad in his name by the terrorists?

Wolf (Who's tired of seeing the U.S. kicked around by people who want to blame it for every damned problem in the world, because people haven't got enough guts to face their own shortcomings!)

Nicole,

Other than the fact that the Sudanese government has allowed terrorists to operate freely out of their nation, and support them, even having given them money and food that was sent to the Sudan as part of the relief efforts by world groups, I'd have to agree with you. Why not send more supplies in so they can sell them, to support the terrorists.

Why is there civil war? The Sudanese government in Khartoum wants all people that are not Muslims to move out of the Sudan. If they don't they will kill them. They refuse to allow people to live, and be part of their nation, unless they subscribe to being Moslem fundamentalist.

If that's your idea of helping humanity, so be it. It sure isn't one that I prescribe to. I will never support any nation that would "exterminate" anyone who isn't completly in tune with their religion, and hatred for all people of other faiths.

Wolf

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Wolfgang81 ]

Did I imply that the U.S. was involved with that? I think not. I was merely noting yet another sad fact in a world full of incidents of devastation. When people say that what happened in New York is "the most horrific event in history," and the like, I am inclined to disagree. It was definitely heartbraking, but so are a lot of other events. I am also quite well informed about the whole history of the Sudanese conflict, thank you. I have researched it and written about it, and met and personally taken care of wonderful Sudanese clients that managed to make it out alive [by living for months off nuts and twigs and dried popcorn kernels that they had to soak in dirty water to soften them - because the humanitarian aid was being stolen by the rebels and the governement]. Also, the current Sudanese government isn't just targeting Christians anymore, they are going after all kinds of people. there are now many more northern (muslim) refugees - intellectuals, musicians, etc.

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]

First of all, it seems we are out of the mourning period and people are getting into debates. For those of you around the world that have had atrocities happen, we now can feel your pain. We have not had to deal with this before, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should get any special attention because of it. And we certainly don't want to minimze anyone's pain in any part of the world. Wolf, what have you have said is right on. Everyone is vulnerable and we realize that now.
Nicole, you are simply contradicting yourself. In one post you say that we Americans should help and another post you say we did help bin Laden. Which is it? Should we have or shouldn't we have? Wolf's point I believe is you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. USA seems to have to bail everyone out, all the time. We loan money to everyone, and when we need them, they'll help, if they don't have to pay us back. Are you suggesting we put a McDonalds on the corner of every street in Afganistan? Should Americans go into a place and do business with people that terrorize and hate us? I certainly do not profess to be an expert on the middle east or politics, but this is just an incomparible situation for the USA. I think that most Americans are compassionate towards other countries and they're problems and wars, but this was a carefully planned attack on the WORLD trade center, not just Americans. Terrorists did that for a reason.

Nicole,

Now you're telling the whole story. Until you did, people would believe that humanitarian aid was not forthcoming because of politics, which would have been untrue.

These deaths are due to civil war, and the fact that the humanitarian offerings have been diverted to the military on both sides, and the terrorists, not due to a lack of interest on the part of nations or humanitarian services.

Yes. When there are educated people, who can reason, totalitarian governments have to rid their society of these people. You can only force feed something as bitter as extreme fundamentalist Muslim doctrine onto people who know no other course that their lives can take.

Now... how does this resemble Afghanistan? Carbon copy if you take a good look at it.

Thanks for posting this response... it's exactly the issues that concern me most. The extremist fundamentalist Muslims will continue to kill anyone whose politics & religion is not totally in agreement with theirs. They consider anyone who disagrees a threat.

Wolf

It's not just Muslim fundamentalists. History is riddled with megalomaniacal leaders and parties that kill indiscriminately.

Also, I was not avoiding "telling the whole story." My point was to indicate that we are not alone in losing huge numbers of people. 100,000 people starving to death in one year is a lot of people. Of Sudanese Christians, as many as 2+ million have been killed, and many enslaved. They do starve due to politics, and fanacitism on both sides, but I did not imply U.S. involvement. As far as I know, there is none in this case, but I could certainly be wrong.

Nic, what are you talking about? There is a huge difference between providing humanitarian aid that is requested and going into someone else country and helping overthrow their governments in order to maneuver some shady character into power that you think will be easy to manipulate for economic gain (and then getting all bent out of shape when he doesn't do what you want, and sending in American soldiers to die fighting that person).

I resent those poor decisions when it costs people their lives.

I believe Bin Laden to be another one of these cases. I do not think the U.S. should have supported him, but it did, because it didn't want Russia to win (there is a recent article in the LA Times about this - also, if you speak French, there are some interesting articles in the French Press). Guess what, once again, the guy turns out is a nut job.


For the other folks, by no means do I think we are unique. In the British press, there was a note referring to the U.S. that said, "a bully with a bloody nose is still a bully." or something to that effect. Much of the world sees us that way. But, I think it is a little ridiculous for any former colonial power to throw stones at the U.S. Current concerns exist as well - take a look at India, or what Shell oil did to the Ogoni in Nigeria, with the help of the Nigerian dictator of course; or, what the Togolese think about what the French have done to them.

And, there are plenty of other countries that are doing terrible things to their people, without the help of any of the superpowers.

But, I still think that when the grieving subsides, we need to take a good hard look at ourselves and figure out what we want for our future.

whatever, anyway, I have to get back to work.

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]