Nic,

Exactly the point! No matter what the U.S. does, we get kicked in the rear.

I totally agree as to why the main target was the WTC. It represented "world business," not specifically U.S. interests. They were sending a message to the world, not just us.

I don't want war. I don't want one more person to die either. But I also don't want to see us sit back and wait for the terrorists to escalate their attacks against us, because we allowed them to get away with what happened. Since we didn't respond to the bombings of our barracks in Saudi Arabia, the USS Cole, our embassies, or the Marine Barracks in Lebanon, they decided to bring us into it by hitting American soil. The attack against the Pentagon was specifically directed at the U.S.

Are they satisfied with the results of what they did? Yes. Are they done attacking us? No. If we do nothing will the attacks quit? No! In fact, if we do nothing, the attacks will escalate, and we could see hundreds of thousands of people die. We have no choice but a war against terrorism. Like it or not, it's where the world is today.

Here's a shocker. There are experts that believe there may be as many as 10,000 or more sleeper terrorist cell members in the U.S. already. The vast majority have not even been tapped on the shoulder yet, to do their jobs.

Wolf

Uh-oh. I'm regretting my above post after beckham's. Looks like another heated debate with no resolution. Arghhh...

I invite you all to share opinions and viewpoints, but let's all remember the ETA-related thread of the recent past, okay? Thank you.

I've kept my silence long enough. The post by beckham is in very poor taste.

The US had been very fortunate not to have been affected by widespread terrorism in the past. The events two weeks ago were horrific.

If 6,500 innocent people had been murdered by fanatics in Northern Ireland in one day, I doubt beckham would be insisting we get over it!

America will never be the same again. More people were massacred in one event than Pearl Harbor and the Titanic combined. This is not something we can (or should) just get over and move on immediately.

I strongly believe that if everyone learned to look at cultural and religious differences as enriching and rewarding experiences we would be a much better world. Instead, humans tend to be suspicious and judgemental of people who are different from themselves.

I try to travel in order to open up my eyes to new cultures and people. It's too bad everyone can't do the same.

Yikes! I've been away from the board for about a day and look what happened!

I agree, oddly enough, with all of you. I hate war. I hate violence. I am intolerant of intolerance! In the best of all possible worlds, no child would ever go to bed hungry, no person suffer needlessly when a cure was a dose of antibiotics away, no woman would be mutilated for her gender, no idea would be kept locked away...festering in some dark place until it became a perversion of itself, no person would suffer because of his/her color, religion, gender, age, ethnicity, sexual preference, ethnicity, language...need I go on? Sadly, the world we live in is imperfect and populated by even more imperfect people.

Wolf is right, I think, in stating that no matter what the US does in terms of world affairs, it is the wrong thing. If we help, we run the risk of helping the wrong side. If we don't help, we are to blame because we let bad stuff happen. Sometimes (too often) our government sides with our business interests (as in Central America) and the good guy loses. Most often, I think we do what we think is right and appropriate at the time. Looking back (the Monday morning quarterback), sure, there are things we really screwed up. But we also have made some pretty good calls. I know a lot of the world thinks we have some magical fountain of wisdom here, but we really don't. Tossing blame around is really pointless, folks. There are a lot of people on both sides of the pond who could have acted differently. We simply can't take care of all the problems of the world, nor should we.

What we do now is a serious problem. There are major cultural miscues that have already happened (Crudades, for example) There will be more. If the day comes when all these terrorists are eradicated (and I don't know how to define terrorists here...do we go after the ETA as well? What about the madness in Ireland and Palestine/Israel?) THEN what? In schools, when you eliminate all the bullies, new ones pop up...a phenomenon I call "The Scum Also Rises." I don't know that this war, as defined, is really winnable. I certainly don't want WWIII, but if that is where we wound up, the US will not have brought it about alone. Those of you in Europe who have the answer to this problem should email Bush AT ONCE. I'm sure the powers-that-be would LOVE some great ideas.

In the meantime, let's not chew each other up. There's enough hatred and intolerance in this world...no need to add to it here.

la maestra(who prays for a peaceful solution every day)

The U.S. is not perfect a country (none are as far as I know) but we certainly do not deserve as much ridicule as we get. Regretfully, we have supported shady characters when it was convenient, especially during the cold war. Like they say….the enemy of my enemy is my friend. We will need to take a hard look at the way we handle foreign policy in the future.

The fact of the matter is though that the U.S., is being far from an aggressive bully in this situation as some might suggest. WE were the ones attacked (not the aggressors) and like any other nation in the world we have the right to defend ourselves and protect our citizens from harm. Why is anybody arguing this basic point? If Afghanistan went over and blew up killed 7000 Britons in the middle of London would we tell them not to protect themselves? It’s totally ridiculous.

I think we are forgetting that if we look back through history, using appeasement as a way to deal with megalomania cal leaders has done nothing but worsen and intensify the situation. If appeasement hadn't been used with WWII Germany as long as it was then maybe thousands of Jews and so many others wouldn't have been massacred. Nobody wants to deal with the situation until it directly affects them at the moment.

I'm not the biggest fan of George W. but in my opinion he has handled this tragedy carefully and wisely, rather than with tunnel vision. His administration has taken care to consult with world leaders to build an international coalition, and gather credible evidence. I also respect the fact that they have repeated numerous times that crimes against Muslim Americans will not be tolerated and are no different than the crimes that terrorists committed. Does this sound like a blind, vengeful leader?? In a time where people are tempted to prejudge, he has set an excellent and important example for the public.

Another point…. the people of Afghanistan did not select or elect the Taliban to power. They are, for all intensive purposes, a dictatorship, and torture and kill their own citizens. I think its a humanitarian crime that any country didn't step in to remove them a long time ago! This isn't anything like a sovereignty issue because they are not a legitimate or humane government.

There are many other great human tragedies in the world as Nicole explained so well. However, although I believe we could DEFINTELY do more humanitarian work, the reality is we do more than any other country as far as aid and support. The political situations in so many developing countries makes it extremely difficulty to help the people that need it most. A lot of aid gets taken by corrupt politicians and their cronies....so much so that the World Bank and IMF fund now have strict criteria for these countries receiving international assistance, such as the nation must be politically stable for five consecutive years or so. We need to open our eyes more as world citizens to the plight of others but we also have the right at this moment to grieve those 7000 lives of all nationalities that were lost.

I've also held my tongue far too long.

What happened on September 11th WAS different for many reasons, not MORE horrific or less dramatic, but it was a turning point, something that no one here ever dreamt of seeing. I'm sure if anyone murdered thousands of people in any country, there would be similar outcries and responses throughout the world as we are seeing now.

There are various differences and similarities that we must realize before we Americans are told to 'get over it'. The terrorists here were not fighting over whose land belonged to who or whose religion was wrong or right. They attacked thousands (or millions if you count everyone who has to deal with the fall-out) of innocent people who didn't even know we were at war or in danger.

Terrorism and in-fighting that has gone on in other parts of the world (ETA, Ireland, Israel/Palestine) is generally based on land/culture/religion. The U.S. has helped as much as possible (I know, not as much as maybe we could or should have, but we have tried nonetheless--I'm not being naive, I know we haven't been completely upright.)Afterall, although there are minorities of people who are small-minded in the U.S. who will hate people due to their color/religion/ or where they're from, generally we are a society which accepts differences. The U.S. people as a whole does not understand how 2 seemingly similar groups of people can fight so ferociously over things.

What happened nearly 2 weeks ago was an evil act carried about by cowards who are now hiding, running for their lives. They struck us--and will CONTINUE to strike at THE WHOLE WORLD until all of us Christian/Jewish 'infidels' are taken care of. Does this sound familiar??

So NO, what happened here isn't any more tragic than what happens fairly regularly in various other countries of the world, but what happened here CAN and WILL happen IN nearly EVERY other free country if we don't do something about it now.

I, too, don't want war, but I don't want those maniacs striking innocent people when we least expect it either. I'm sorry if this isn't as well-written as some of the others, but I've been stewing over this all day.

WE must now realize by fighting over this, we are giving those animals what they want. Let's put this aside--who is or isn't wrong or right--and try to get through this civilly and together. Because although none of us may want war and some may still not think it was a big deal, it's still "us" (the sane, peaceful, civil human-beings) vs. "them" (the fanatic animals who carried this off and will continue to do so until they are stopped).

Perhaps I am still a little too close having lost a friend in the tragedy, however that could have been any one of us--no matter what our religion, race, or nationality--on those flights or working or visiting the WTC.

Peace be with you all, and may God help us through this.

[ 09-24-2001: Message edited by: GranadaGirl ]

GranadaGirl, with all due respect, I believe that a healthy and vigorous debate amongst free people from around the world, each free to express their opinions about a serious matter to us all, one with profound implications for the future, is exactly what they DON'T want. The enemy would not tolerate it in their world. Already we are winning...

Passions are running VERY high on these issues (after all, it's literally life and death were talking here), and the overall civility here is to be admired.

Wolf, Of course your wife is not wrong to make flags, she's an example of all the wonderful people in this country. We all did the same in our shop.And the event Friday was great, I heard, and I too have donated money. So much for expressing my ineloquent and tortured views. I again apologize if I offended anyone.

Hello, I am a New Yorker since 1985. We've lost so much at the WTC...but we will come back (like Rudy says!). BUT, after reading this whole thread, MADRIDMAN is absolutely right. Go back and read his post again. Thanks for your time! Thanks MADRIDMAN.

Hi Everybody,

i totally agree with Wolfgang, it is amazing to see how things get twisted around. During the attack i was in Madrid and was AMAZED by the spanish media (especially listening to RNE) where they had the audacity to justify the attacks after about an hour after both towers came down with historic events. They were refering to the US involvement in the middle east, especially with Israel and how the people (muslims) down there just have to build up agressions towards the US and its allies. Next day, i was on the TALGO train and got into a conversation with four spaniards who tried to convince me that Osama bin Laden was this poor guy who got built up by the US and then left helpless in the line of fire of the soviets ! (article in El Mundo 12.09.) That is also when i found out, that spain was one of the last countries in europe to recognize Israel as a legal state. Especially ridiculous is the accusation that the US pull anybody into a war and in the same sentence reffering to wwII. Amazing how some people still believe that Pearl Harbour was a "trap" to have a reason to enter war. Has anybody ever considered that the bombs on Japan might have prevented even greater harm on millions of people ? Remember that the japanese "invented" steering airplanes into targets (kamikaze). How are you going to fight an enemy that fanatic? No war and no terrorist organisation is ever going to be able to work or or operate without the broad support of people. So sometimes you just have to break the people (civilians) to break the support for a regime or terrorist organisation. I just came back from NYC today and was very happy to feel the spirit of the people getting back to their everyday life. Sometimes all this american nationalistic spirit is too much for us europeans, but in times like these i just admire this sense of unity they have. One last thing about this bin Laden thing. Read in a spanish newspaper today that it is not clear if he did it or he plotted it by himself blablabla. He did enough ALREADY, ok ! That shouldn´t even be up for discussion. And the taliban regime did enough already, they deserve what i hope they will harvest soon. Just think about the german and american development workers that are kept hostage and treated like criminals for suspected support of the christian religion. So hold on here a second, why should we tolerate this radicalism if they want to sentence people to death because they supposedly support christian believe ?

Cheers,

Ben