El Cid..."Verbum sapiente sat est!--¡Una palabra al sabio es suficiente!"

This isn't just some random saying I picked up somewhere...My father taught it to me. It speaks volumns without saying much.....thus the moral of the saying.

Regarding this thread, there is nothing more to say or to add that hasn't been mentioned in the original thread. Most of it isn't very nice and people have traded insults with each other. What needed to be said has been said. It has become a dead horse issue!

Now if you really want to start a good debate, get two viejitas to discuss the best way to prepare bacalao or two viejitos in making authenic paella Valenciana!

"A word to the wise / Una palabra al sabio..." --> You may have a point when it comes to your proverb. However, this discussion about America's "liberation" of Iraq should be left to persons more level-headed about the subject at hand. True, it is also unproductive to curse at one's own desire, especially when it's a waste of the forum's bandwidth and MM has to pay for it in the meantime.

As for the "bacalao or two viejitos in making authenic paella Valenciana!", I might have to get back to you on that. :o

LOL first we argued about the war and this and that.......now we're arguing about whether or not we should argue anymore.

I will echo my first post and say let's stop being circular and argumentative and try to put our energy towards something more productive.

Mikey

With all due respect to everyone's opinion, the worst thing a society can do is censor public dialogue. While this board is not a "country" it does represent a microcosm of a society of users.

I believe that if members choose to discuss issues that are important to them they may do so.


After all, you don't have to participate, and you can ignore the thread, like so many members have done so.

Right on Booklady! People do not have to read what's in a thread. I also agree that it's nice to be able to see and state points of view in a forum like this one, because we have so many people with diverse backgrounds.

I've always believed that people who are afraid to hear someone else's point of view are either too self ingrossed to listen, or too engrained in their beliefs to allow any other opinion being offered.

I too oppose censorship.

I'm with you 100% my friend!

Wolf

Of course nobody is able to (nobody could anyway, but for MM) forbid new posts in this thread.

It's only that we all know (Don't we, Wolf?) where it leads when a thread gets very hot and discusion gives way to argument, and when sarcasm leads to rudeness and maybe rudeness to insults.

Anyway, the data are there, and I am trying to avoid making further considerations on the said, because I know (experience tells me so) this will lead to a quarrel thread. This matter is a very personal matter for many people.

Also, as Osomajor says, info is in the thread already, what could be following now is opinions on the USA's foreign policy, which is a sensible matter, since most spanish hate it no matter they may like the USA or not, their foreign policy is hated in most countries uniformly.

For example, I could have gone on with the comments of Mickey about the way the USA got most of it's states' land, because the "interpretation" he makes of History seems laughable to me. But until now I had restrainted myself to do so, not to heat the topic.

Most of the components of the board, at least of those intervening in this topic are N.Am., this is why I simply got overwhelmed by the task of answering all replies, documenting my answers, researching, and doing most of this in English (I go much more slowly), taking the best care in selecting words in a language that's not mine to make it undertandable and that nobody can put words in my mouth because of saying vague or wrong words.

If you want a thread where all the Americans in MM can join and say "america is the best and is always right" and the rest answer "True" "Aye", and so on, it's up to you to go on. Never heard of censorship by forum members.

I renounce to keep on having a dialogue of this kind, at least unless some more spaniards (including the starter of the thread, who didn't appear anymore) help me defend the spanish point of view (90%+ of the spaniards against the war at the very beginning, now probably many more, I guess), which is not different to many other nations but for the USA vassals or clients (like Turkey that is against the invasion but will send 10.000 men in exchange of about 8.500.000.000 $). I refuse to be the Quijote of lots of people who would agree with me but won't take the task in their shoulders.

Writing a while is nice, but having to be hours doing the above tasks is only nice when you have unlimited amounts of time and feel like that.

Besides, I have read several forum members, whom I respect, like Calibasco and Wolf, who, I know, have opinions that diverge from mine, and I would hate to get angry with them or Vice versa, just because of a topic I never wanted to discuss in this mainly american forum.

Ignacio's right.

Everyone has the right to discuss but after a while all points are made and thickheaded-ness prevails along with needless insults.

Ignacio has his own interpretation of history and I mine. We could go on for hours presenting research countering each other's arguments. However, we stopped because we know that it is rather impotent to keep arguing.

I think it's important to bring a degree of objectivity to these discussions in order to avoid insults or biting sarcasm a.k.a. 'heated discussion'.

Ignacio,

Then, if you want to get into interpretation of how the states in the U.S. came to be, we can start discussing how it is that Spain believes they "own" the Basque Country, couldn't we? In other words, don't bother pointing out our "shortcomings" until you rectify your own as a nation. At least we don't hear about California wanting to leave the U.S. and become their own nation like the Basques. Spain's world wide empire was removed from them by force, not because of the nation's good hearted nature, don't you think?

What puzzles me most is why anyone would spend all their time trying to find fault with the U.S. when they have so many of their own internal problems to rectify. Like someone said, earlier on, when we see 2,000 Spaniards standing up, and picketing against Al Qaeda, we'll begin to take the voice of people who protest against us seriously. Until then, the soap box doesn't work.

You can't say you're against what we do.... and demonstrate against it.... then allow what's happening around the world due to terrorists stand on it's own merit without showing some unity against it. Isn't that kind of a small minded position to take? No matter what, the U.S. is wrong, has always been wrong, will always be wrong, and there's absolutely no redeeming quality for the reason it exists?

Sorry! That's not something an American will accept without standing up and being counted.

As for previous threads, there are new posters in this one. I'm just trying to figure out why we hear that threads should end the moment the tide turns against anti-American sentiment in each thread. There's something wrong with that picture.

I believe that's called censorship. If you don't want to hear what someone else is saying, don't open the thread. It's just that simple.

What you and I have learned from our agreements and disagreements is that they should never distract from our being friends. Let's hope everyone realizes how important that is.

Wolf

" At least we don't hear about California wanting to leave the U.S." Funny you should mention that Wolf. As bad as the budget crises is here in California ($35,000,000,000), it's still the 5th largest economy in the world, and people here light heartly say we should secede from the Union.
There are groups here that want to split California in half and turn it into two separate states, Northern and Southern California.

Im wondering if I left the impression that Im pro censorship when I mentioned that this topic is a dead horse issue and why need to continue feeding it. Truth be known I really don't give a rat's buttucks if the thread continues or not, but I really feel that everything about the Iraq situation has been touched on (pro & con) and we should focus on a different topic. It could involve similar topics regarding US policies or European or Middle Eastern policies, whatever...

A topic is only interesting when it focuses on fresh information, lively debate and tempered argument. It gets old and tired once it starts merry-go-rounding and the same things are thrashed out over and over again.

Maybe your right Wolf, maybe I and others who are tired of this subject shouldn't click on the topic anymore...but you know the old saying, "Curiousity kills the cat!" So, maybe I'll just go ahead and continue to click in and roll my eyes and nod my head and see just how long this slug fest will last.

But y'all can rest assured that I won't be adding anymore comments here....nope....no Sir.....I won't.......not gonna do it!........no mas..............the hell I won't!

Wolf:

As I said before, I can't and wouldn't want to forbid anything, so , do as you like, what can I say?

AS for the basques, I really prefer not to speak on this matter, besides, it's off-topic in this thread. There are a lot of threads in MM's for those who want to read about this.

As for the Spanish Empire, it was removed by force with the economic and political first, and militar later, help of a new growing Empire, the USA Empire.

It doesn't matter how many problems we may have when it comes to say if one thing is good or bad. I am the first to make auto-critic when it comes to the spanish situation, corruption, and so on. When I see something that's bad I say it, no matter what country it`s about.

I don't know wether there were demonstrations against Al-Quaida. I wonder if there was any in the USA at that moment. I think there was no need, since everyone sympatized and felt sorry for the poor people dead in the towers, this was almost unanimous here, as USA travellers have posted in this very site.

However, what the USA have done is incredibly more evil. A tower for two countries destroyed.

And the first country could have a reason, because there were Al-Quaeda camps, but Irak had nothing of what Bush said they had. destroying ths country for their oil was an infamy, and occupying it an act of dishonour and abuse forever staining the USA reputation.

Most of the international community and public opinion supported or at least kept silent about Afghanistan, but this bloody bragging of the USA in Irak has confronted the whole world public opinion and most countries.

It's not that it should be closed because more pro-North Americans arrived to the thread. In fact I can't remember anyone asking MM to close it, only suggesting to let it be.

It begun as a sensible topic, positions begun to heat, and I feel (and the other posters too) it did not lead to anywhere, since the same facts were been seen absolutely differently by each faction. Example: for me, the USA expanden to become what it is, in an obvious imperialist way (and so think everyone I know), but it seems that for some or all the N.Am. people, it was justified by some stange offenses , attacks, ..., that the weaker countries and tribes did to the powerful neighbour to make him invade them and steal territory.

Since positions and interpretation of the very same facts are so apart, do you think there is a serious possibility of intelligent dialogue? I don't.

There is another matter and it's my own position. I simply cannot be facing you all, in English and resarching to suport my words with facts. It's exhausting, and until now I am the only one on this side, but for the first post (I wonder why he started the topic, where I entered to make him respect the americans because not everybody was suppoting the same positions, if he is posting no more).

This is the reason why I won't post much but for a short reply from here on. It´s not just because of reinforcements. It´s because I can not put up with your posts, I don't have tiem enough. By now, I think I have been writing more that 45', and I simply cannot do this very often.

What Osomajor and Mickey, and me, did were suggestions. As for me, you can be discussing this matter forever, i'll try to post just a paragraph as a maximum or post an article or something that doesn't make me work that much. Booklady's style, no, Booklady?

And preferently not post anymore, but maybe a courtesy post in case you want to reply, not to leave you "con la palabra en la boca" (with the word in your mouth, and me leaving), and then preferrebly nothing. Then you can praise each other how good is the USA foreign policy that's hated throughout the world. A bloody empire's.