Your reason for the staunch U.S. stance is a poor excuse for countries not to come forward and try. If other countries want to be considered equal then they have to act like it. I find it hard to believe that certain Western powers cannot come forward and propose something.

You say you want Bush to learn his lesson. You forget that when Bush is out of the White House, that lesson won't matter anymore. It may or may not be on his conscience. It will be just another chapter in American History. However, the Iraquis who suffer now because of the lack of resources and the lack of those who are not willing to help will suffer the consequences and they will remember and will retain lasting effects. As far as individual countries providing assistance, I think it would be more prudent if the EU were to contribute resources as a whole. Perhaps humanitarian aid given to U.S. or UN soldiers to distribute. After all, the countries you stated, France, Germany and Spain have enough minor problems they need to focus on without being the specific bringer of assistance to Iraq.

Prior to and at the onset of the war, the American people were frustrated, not knowing what to do, who to listen to and who to believe. The American people does not trust the UN. The country was literally torn in half. The media tells the story, the President says it's necessary, and all other sources are met with suspicion. With Sadaam's track record of non-compliance with the UN how was he believable to anyone? If anyone is to blame for the turmoil in Iraq it's Sadaam. He new the consequences getting into a war with the US. I really don't think he felt that the Americans could actually bring down his government, but he knew he would have a nasty war on his hands.

When a spider bites you, what do you do? You squash it; that's what the US did with Sadaam. Was it the right thing to invade Iraq? In my opinion...No! But the whole blame should not rest on the US government alone. The rest of the world was dragging it's feet regarding the situation when it should have demanded action from Sadaam or insist in his stepping down as leader. Unfortunately the UN doesn't have the [censored] to do anything unless it's made to respond...i.e. North Korea, Africa, India & Pakistan, Israel and Palistine, etc. etc. etc.

Of course every country has the right to govern itself. So, what do we need the UN for, to make pretty speeches and resolutions and to tell wayward countries that they're misbehaving? Puhleeese!!!

I know its more than that, and that these problems will not be resolved by any manmade organization. What's tiresome is all the bullsh*t that nations fling at each other without a proper resolution to the matter until something like this war has to happen!

NOBODY IN THE US WANTED IT, EVEN THOSE THAT SUPPORTED IT DIDN'T REALLY WANT IT! And those that stupidly said they did are ignorant! I had two nephews that went to Iraq, they just recently returned, unharmed. The soldiers don't want to be there either, but it's their duty and it's their blood that is being spilled. I didn't like Ignacio's comment to "let the USA bleed slowly in soldiers lifes." Well, it's not your countrymen's lives lost. Should we here in the US care when ETA bombs kill innocent people, soldiers or politicans in the streets of Madrid? Why should our soldiers be sent out to South America, Asia or Liberia? When our soldiers were sent to Somalia and were killed protecting the grain that was sent to FEED THE HUNGRY rather than having it stolen by the warlords to feed their soldiers, who cared? The rest of the world? Hell No! So, why should anymore American soldiers go into any other country to die for ungrateful people? Americans wear their heart and compassion on their sleeves. I guess we have to learn to become callous like the rest of the world! But then again, we've only been around for 227 years...

"I well know, O Jah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."
Jeremiah 10:23

Madridman, I know that this is a site about tourism, and the least suitable to deal about the Irak issue. If someone can address me to a more suitable message board where I can discuss it with people from around the world, I will be very grateful. So far, I have attempted it at the Young Republicans from S.Francisco, but their forum is almost empty.
If you eventually decided to lock this thread, I would be the last one to complain.
Mikey
You know what? I am tired of being "mature" and "reasonable". Me, and thousands like me, have spent months talking reasonable, boring, TRUE facts instead of the horror tale about "bogey man" Hussein and his Star of Death plan to blast away Aldera-Ann. What did we get in turn? Being harassed, labelled or insulted. Do you know what was the response of a pro-war person in this mb, when forced to face awkward facts about the war? "All that is downright garbage".
Do you know what is the funniest thing of all? If all this damned thing started again, nothing would change at all. You jingoists would make exactly the same mistakes as one year ago, and would believe the same stinky lies. You said peace activists were "against our troops" and pro-war were in fact "supporters of our troops". Now go and tell your troopers how come their "supporters" have sent them 10 000 miles away, to die at a rate of 2 per day in a barren wasteland.
It takes effrontery to claim "matureness" to those who have suffered the results from the most amazing explosion of hysteria, jingoism and paranoia ever seen in a civilized country since the Chinese Cultural Revolution.
Don`t ask us for solutions, or mature contributions to the issue, we have been providing them to you for the last twelve months and you haven`t listened a word. You pro-war supporters got entangled here, now get out for yourselves.

It really saddens me to read your post.

First of all, I didn't address you directly (or jeer). My postings have nothing to do with Jingoism. I was and still am against the war. AND YOU KNOW WHAT, NO ONE LISTENED TO ME EITHER!! However, I realize that what's done is done and we must look past our pride and vanity to help others out. If I told myself 'well since none of these war-supporters listened to me, to hell with them they can clean up their own mess' I don't think I could live with myself. How can you honestly say this ?

"Don`t ask us for solutions, or mature contributions to the issue, we have been providing them to you for the last twelve months and you haven`t listened a word. You pro-war supporters got entangled here, now get out for yourselves"

What kind of condescending, snide, elitist claim is that? Do you think you and your opinion are so valuable that if not heeded you can't be bothered? Do you think you are above anyone else or that this situation is below you?? You're worth just as much as the war-supporters and the poverty stricken Iraquis. You claim to have provided solutions and maturity throughout. So since no one listened to you you're going to go cry and complain and demand apologies rather than take it like an adult and still want to help and contribute?! Give me a break. You're going to totally shrug your shoulders and say I told you so? Meanwhile a nation that needs everyone's help is in turmoil. That is the most ignorant and selfish thing I have ever read. I am utterly disgusted to read your opinion. People know the war was wrong but it's time to suck it up. I'm sorry if no one listening to you jilted your feelings.

Mickey, I cannot say anything else to the words I wrote before. I think it's incredibly surprising that:

1- The USA doesn't count with the allies to break, but they want to count with them to mend!

2- The USA wants us to do so, with no control on our men and/or money!

And then, I also think that:

3- The USA needs another cure to learn to be humble, cause they have forgotten too soon the Viet-Nam.

4- There are plenty of other countries who are in the same or worse situation than Irak, that could be helped. We needn't help Irak just because it's the USA major problem now. There are a lot of suffering countries along the world.

Osomajor:

I am surprised by what you say. By now, it should seem that it's perfectly clear for all, that Al Quaeda has no relation with Saddam at all. Yes, there were a couple of bases of connected groups (Ansar al Islam) in the kurdish area (used by Saddam to disturb kurdish operations, since Irak's aviation was banned from the area, but there is Al Quaeda activities in the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, and many other countries (don't forget Spain, where lots of preparations for the towers disaster were planned and made), and, however, these countries are not anti-american or pro-terrorists.

It has never been proved any Al Quaeda base or Al Quaeda anything in Irak, same as there was any evidence of chemical weapons, nuclear warheads or any of the many many lies said.

About the spider's bite: Yes, but as the USA government couldn't find the spider, because it run and hide fast, they killed the parrot instead (that ugly parrot was a nuisance awakening you every morning half an hour before the clock rang).

The USA Government has channelized the peoples' fair fury for the Towers' terrorist act towards a weakened country in the Middle East that NOW had done nothing (they were punished for what they did, and they couldn't buy weapons ¡For ten years or more! Do you know what this means regarding weapons? Ammunition is depleted (or whatever the word is ) and the weapons obsolete. They had no aviation, scarcely some middle range missiles, the tanks that worked couldn't do anything against the USA new ones, ... A massacre.

A soldier could only look at the sky and see the planes that were going to kill him with no hope in own aviation or missiles. Soldiers were as defenceless as civilians.

As for the rest of the world and the UN, we did nothing because there was nothing to do, in spite of the USA bullying us. As it`s now been proved, all the USA government reasons for the war were lies, so it was us who were right.

We wanted a trial, not a lynch, which is what the USA did. Unfortunately when Lynch law is applied, more innocent than guilty people die, in the hands of mobs.

Of course, every country has the right to govern themselves, as humans too, but we live in a community, and this community requires that, if somebody breaks the rules, it must be punished by the rest (i.e.: jail). We used to see the USA as the gunman we had hired to be the sheriff, now we see he's became a desperado outlaw, and we can't do anything to stop him from killing, we're peaceful and he's too fast with guns.

I am glad that your nephews are alright. I care for the american soldiers as much as I cared for Iraki defenceless "soldier" and civilians who were killed by american bombs, being innocent.

To me, every life is precious, but we have to look into a wider scenary. The Viet Nam war made the USA notice that their agressive imperialist policy had a cost. Now, the lesson has been forgotten, and the masses have been confused by the US media, who are also constricted by the fact that they have to support war or be considered anti-american. Thus, every opposition is silenced as effectively as in a dictatorship.

The only stop for this craze impulsed by the US Government were the media, but the media could only critisize the minimum or be called traitor. This made people be misleaded (or fooled), and support the Government position and war.

And it all begins again, a vicious circle! Only the truth (mainly through the allied Media- British) is bringing some light to the matter.

And, if there was no reason for this attack, the world is slowly realising that the true reason for the war and invasion of Irak was the economic interest of the N.Am. oil firms in the Iraki oil, which was not in their hands, yet.

In fact, many persons of the US Govenment have been closely related, at the highest levels, with major N.Am. oil companies, starting by Mr. G.W. Bush and Halliburton, (the same firm that's getting contracts of tenths and hundreds of dolars in Irak from the US Government without open competition, what has been shown by their rivals-not by unfriendly countries or anything)Condoleeza Rice and many others highest level officials .

Now every country is putting his hands to cover his *ss because a desperado is free in the streets and we don't know whose wife or house will he want ot get by killing us.

When a country receives a lesson that must last for years, that lesson must be painful, as painful was the reason that caused it. The USA have committed a terrible mistake in Irak, but to call it a terrible mistake is not enough. If you kill an innocent by mistake, you go to jail. If you didn't there would be no safety in the streets because everybody could kill anybody who was a "suspect" of anything.

Now, the lesson that the USA must learn is that they cannot invade countries as they like and without the international support, and this lesson is going to be sour, just as it was for the poor iraki dead, widows, mutilated, blind, orphans and unemployed that there are because of the USA. It´s sour, but it´s fair.

We took our lesson 100+ years ago in Cuba. The thousands of deaths made our mentality change from an imperialist country to a country that cared only on his bussiness, unless it was for helping people under the UN PEACE missions. By the way, nothing to object to the US help under the uN nations along with many other countries in many other missions.

That's why we didn't fight Morocco for our colony at Sahara and we gave peacefully the independence to Guinea Ecuatorial.

There is no reason why peasants should die to defend economic interests of corporations while invading foreign countiers that no longer are able to harm. A soldier joins the army for many reasons, but mainly to defend your country, not to invade or attack others. Because of this, most agressive wars are disguised as defensive ones, with the strangest reasons, like this.

I hope the USA people, who "controls" (at least once each four years-the vote day, afterwards politicians do as they like) the most powerful army and economy in the world, can see the lies and the unfairness of the US Government policy.

Unless they do, they'll force nations to arm again, because nuclear disarm agreements were mada to live in peace, but it's obvious now that the USA want the Pax Romana (the peace of the Empire), where they order and the rest obbey. To prevent this, it seems that only being strong in weapons is effective. Example: North Korea, they have nukes (and they don't have valuable resources to steal) so the USA doesn't bother them

Ignacio,

"4- There are plenty of other countries who are in the same or worse situation than Irak, that could be helped. We needn't help Irak just because it's the USA major problem now. There are a lot of suffering countries along the world."

Iraq isn't just the US's problem. It's not as if the US spilled a giant glass of milk and now we want help to clean it up. There are living people here. To say it's just a problem demeans the Iraqi poeple and all they're going through. All should be compelled to help out. Maybe I expect to much dignity from fellow man.

As this topic is getting rather circular in its postings this is my last message.

Ignacio...for the most part I agree with you.

Mikey...you're right, let's tie a knot on this thread and cut it off!

If one is looking for an apology for the conflict in Iraq, one should start with the US Clinton administration and the intelligence services of Spain, France, Germany, Russia, Great Britain, China, India, Israel, Turkey, Canada, Italy and Australia, all of whom unequivocally concluded that the Hussein regime in Iraq had chemical and biological weapons, was seeking more, and wanted to develop nuclear weapons at the earliest possible moment. So what happened to them? According to the same sources, likely moved out of the country in the weeks before the war, probably to Syria and Lebanon. Also, there is no way any objective observer can deny that Hussein’s regime was actively involved in supporting Islamo-Fascist jihadism and was a fellow traveler of al-Queda and its allies.

That being said, I’d like to thank Ignacio for his comments along the line of ‘let America bleed’ as he lays bare the feelings of the people of ‘Eurabia’: the desire for American blood to be spilled. That American pain means continued misery for the people of Iraq means little to Ignacio and his ilk, but it is to be expected. The leading members of the Eurabian Union, France and Germany, cared not a whit for the fate of Iraqis under the Hussein regime, and they do not care about them now. It is interesting how deeply committed France and Germany, along with tens of thousands of Eurabian citizens were to keeping Hussein as the overlord of the Iraqi slave-state. Now that his regime, one of the bloodiest and most outrageous of the modern era, has been deposed, the people of Eurabia show almost no concern for the well-being of the shell-shocked and brutalized slaves of Hussein’s killing fields. But this is nothing new. In the 1991 Gulf war it was the ‘Coalition’ partners of Eurabia, Russia and the Arab world that forbade America from deposing Hussein and supporting the popular uprisings against him lest the popular support of these ‘partners’ vanish.

But then again, what popular support would America ever enjoy when the interests of TotalFinaElf (whose vice-chairman, by the way, is the brother-in law of Canada’s Quebec-born prime minister. Any wonder for the complete abandonment of America by its northern ‘ally’?) and other French and Russian conglomerates and weapons manufacturers are threatened. And how could America ever hope to forge a solid alliance with the nations of Eurabia against the likes of Saddam Hussein. Just look at the comments of this thread, and it is clear that the ‘international community’ wouldn’t support America against Satan himself. Oh, I’m sorry, America IS Satan to the majority of the Eurabian and Muslim nations.

Take a look at the United Nations, with major committees headed by Libya and Cuba, and its roll call stocked with dozens and dozens of petty, tyrannical and blood-soaked regimes and tell me again why American action without the ‘blessing’ of this craven and self-serving bureaucracy is somehow immoral or against international law. It is neither. The overwhelming attitude is that America was ‘wrong’ and the UN, et. al. was ‘right’. That the unconditional surrender of the UN was in any way a contributing factor to the war in Iraq is simply unthinkable. Despite the undisputed fact that the Iraqi regime was in flagrant violation of eighteen UN resolutions, plus the cease-fire (NOT a ‘peace treaty’) that ended the ’91 conflict, the UN absolutely refused to act, except in the demand from some quarters that the sanctions placed upon Iraq be ended since they (and not the despicable Hussein regime) were responsible for the suffering of the Iraqi people.

Had the Eurabian Union, Russia and the UN stood solidly behind American threats of action against Hussein, had Hussein seen that there was no hope of splitting the alliance and of extracting a compromise ‘solution’ that would have left him in power, it is quite conceivable that no war would have been necessary. Hussein might very well have abdicated or been forced from the country. But France, Germany and Russia thought it was more important to harangue and humiliate the US at the United Nations than to see Hussein forced into submitting without a fight. In this endeavor they were supported by thousands of marchers from the Eurabian nations, who made a point of also blaming America for every other international and social ill that they could think of.

It is quite clear that the nations of Europe are surrendering to Islamo-fascism, lest they incur the wrath of their nascent and expanding Muslim populations. Muslim and Arab terror organizations have operated at will across Europe (from Hamburg to Madrid to Finsbury Park to Barcelona to the World Trade Center) for many years. For years Europeans have drawn a distinction between Hamas the bus-bombers and Hamas the ‘social welfare organization’, as if one could draw distinctions between the Nazi Brown-Shirts of ‘kristalnacht’ and Nazi soup-kitchens. Of course, most nations of Europe were quite willing to cooperate with this last murderous fascist movement, including Spain. Europe will do anything to avoid having to face danger or responsibility for what it hath wrought.

Thus, one must refer to the Eurabian Union and Eurabia, as an ever-growing Muslim and Arab immigrant population takes over the demographically vanishing peoples of Europe, and Eurabian governments and people respond accordingly.

Thank you, thank you Ignacio for clearly stating the sentiment of so many of your Eurabian compatriots: American blood is what you thirst for above and beyond all else. It is a perfect example of what the United States must expect from the people of Eurabia from now on.

Kurt, I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into a lengthy debate with you on the European reaction to our involvement in Iraq. I think getting into a war is a little like getting married in that when friends and family warn you to think it over, they may know something you don't! Europe has suffered many more wars than we have, and I'd like to think that the reaction of European countries to involvement in war stems from the horrors they experienced. Our involvement has been largely on foreign soil; theirs was up close and personal. We have been blessed in never having had to experience world war on our land. In addition, what we do to alienate people strikes at them too. Those who go after Americans wind up attacking people of other countries who happen to be near us. The danger for Europeans is much greater than for us...they are, after all, so much closer to the nations in question than we are.

Our European friends have rational and intelligent reasons for opposing the war, and the fact that Bush wants their help but insists again on maintaining control is not doing anything to help. If we are going to have peace in this world we are going to all have to put our egos aside and look out for one another and not just ourselves. So much of what has caused this problem with the Moslem world has come of our not understanding other cultures nor valuing their beliefs and customs. Blame throwing won't help...we need to look for sensible solutions. A big chunk of what we as a nation must do involves serious fence mending with our allies and friends. We have enough enemies as it is...we sure as hell don't need to make new ones!

Kurt said:
“there is no way any objective observer can deny that Hussein’s regime was actively involved in supporting Islamo-Fascist jihadism and was a fellow traveler of al-Queda and its allies”

Sure, and no way any objective observer can deny that Mermaids came from outer space to build Mexican pyramids...maybe the mermaids along with brownies have taken the massive destruction weapons, back to Mars. I`ll tune on Fox news tonight and find out. Sure Powell and his misterious-unknown-sources have a clue on the matter.

Kurt, you have opened my eyes. So the point is, Eurabians are silly and bad, and hate Amerisraelis. I am right, aren`t I? Just a minute, I am right now receiving through my fax a couple million bucks from ELF, to reward my opinions against war.
I am being IRONICAL, Kurt. I am kidding. OK? Do you know why? Have you got a clue why I don`t even bother to argue with you?
Well, because it is not worth. When someone (you) has received a brain-washing, it is plain STUPID trying to use reason. Reason on a washed brain is like water on a raincoat: it simply slides over it. And I`ll prove it right now:
Look at the first post of this thread. It has been written by one of your countrywomen, Kurt. The author is an Amerisraeli. So all your passional speech about hate-filled Eurabians is just chicken feed. But sure this simple fact doesn`t mind you at all. Am I wrong?