Gazpacho wrote:

Consider the year: some of that anti-UN sentiment surely came from people in the antiwar movement, who probably considered the UN militaristic. Now the UN is being lambasted for not wanting to blow people up. Hardly the same issue.

el viajero,

It doesn't matter why France is against lifting sanctions on Iraq? Brilliant answer. The Hussein government no longer exists, and it's time to rebuild Iraq with an eye for creating a viable democracy in the region. That doesn't matter to France, or you. Apparently neither of you are above pouting - because you didn't get your way.

France's refusal to budge on any issues dealing with Iraq will only cause more concerns for the UN, and make their involvement in the rebuilding less viable. I can't help but marvel at how there are governments, and people in the world, who would look past the mayhem that a Saddam Hussein has heaped on his own people, and accept a despot as a leader simply by saying, "War is wrong." You mention my being a "racist, and a bigot," while all the while you should be looking in your mirror and seeing who you really are.

If anyone has discredited themselves, it's you, with your posturing, and failure to respond to issues. Instead of offering facts, and details about issues, you skirt them.

You have no idea of what has transpired over the years related to terrorism, and could care less.

I suggest you start by doing a little research on terrorism, and the escalation of the war against the U.S., and Europe, that began many years ago. You'll find the truth in that research.

It wasn't that long ago in this thread that you indicated you couldn't find any online information relating to the link between al-Qaeda and the Hussein regime. In essence, you denied it existed. When I offered a multitude of links where you could begin your research you "conveniently" swept them under the rug, or weren't about to admit that the links exist because it went totally against what your point of view has been. I certainly hope your research ability is better when it comes to the classroom.

You're right about one thing. Your quote. You couldn't have described yourself better.

Wolf

Just a couple of news, these were reported several times by Spanish TV news this latter week:
-Looters have assaulted the Iraki ministry of Health. They have taken away the samples of viruses that were in storage for medical investigation (cholera, AIDS and that). The marines in the area were commanded "to stay away from the building in order to prevent any risk".
Funny, isn`t it? Now those viruses maybe are being auctioned to any psycho killer or terrorist group that wants to play with them. Is this what Bush claims to be "a war against terror"?
-The national library has been burned, then some priceless cultural treasures spoiled for ever. Also the Archaeological museum was looted; it contained lots of remains from ancient Middle East civilizations (Babylon, Ur, Ninive and all that Iraki stuff). The American troops stood around, carefully surveying the looting operation...and doing nothing.
In any case, they protected the oil pits from the very beginning. Priorities are priorities...
-The soldier who shot Palestine hotel claims no one told him that journalists were staying there. The Spanish minister for foreign affairs refuses to condemn the attack.
-The American government has started to point the companies which will make profit from "reconstruction", in a not-too-legal process where, funny enough, former secretaries of state and Pentagon advisors happen to be, in the same time, managers of the chosen companies.
And I can`t believe how can ANY foreigner dare to critizice Iceland, the oldest and most stable democracy in the world, the first Parliament on Earth, the highest quality of life according to all surveys, the best preserved Environment, and so on and on...
By the way, I think Njall`s saga and the Eddas, both Icelandic works of literature, are the BEST ever written.

El Viajero,

Please re-read my post and see if you can help me see where I said that the veto was inherently bad. I think Chirac's use of the veto threat was bad. If one has a veto, and one says "no matter what you say, I will veto" that tends to end debate.

I sort of do agree with Wolf that giving France the veto is indicative of the structural problems that the UN has. Germany is a much more meaningful economy, yet doesn't have a veto. Are we still fighting WW II? But I think the UN's problems are so great that this one doesn't bear worrying about.

Are you forgetting that a group of media organizations (I don't remember them all, but the Miami Herald was one) joined together and spent over a million dollars to finish the count? The final tally indicated that Bush's margin would have been bigger. Doesn't say much for Bush, just that voter's that couldn't follow directions voted for him, too. I won't quibble about the date that the court set. Might have been too soon. But I do believe the court had to set a date or we would still be arguing.

One of the main differences between Americans and Europeans is that a large number here have less patience for long solutions, bureaucracy, and inactivity. Before I get slammed, please understand that I could argue either way for how that impacts quality of life. But for better or worse, we tend to be an impatient people. In commerce that tends to be a good thing, in diplomacy it is occasionally a bad thing. Silicon Valley is in the US. Our president decided 11 years was too long to wait, and most Americans agree, and most Europeans disagree. Maybe we could resurrect Soloman.

I still think the thread is interesting because it highlights many of those differences. I also think we may take ourselves too seriously.

Ernesto

Hey Cristobo,

I can't understand how any foreigner can criticize the U.S. Let's not forget that totil started off by criticizing the U.S. He seems to think that we are undergoing some sort of an "American Inquisition" here. I have never heard the president here described as particularly religious. Again, in Europe, you must be seeing a different side to our country than we see here. The media over here never even shows President Bush going to church, although I'm sure he does.
All the same, I regret that I considered Iceland some sort of backwater socialist state where everyone lives off the dole and producers are taxed in a punitive way, in other words, without freedom. And, as a matter of fact, I am still surprised that it isn't. I'd heard that during the Cold War, they sympathized with the U.S.S.R., which really wasn't such a bad idea, since they are so close to it.
If someone doesn't want their country criticized, then please don't so blatantly criticize the U.S. Some Americans just don't appreciate this.

Cristobo,

What does your latest post have to do with the issue of the war in Iraq? Obviously nothing. You're using it as a "bash post" against the U.S. Why bother? We already know your stance on the issue. U.S. bad! Carrin and far left wing good!

Apparently you don't understand the fact that it's impossible for American troops - or any other troops for that matter - to spend their time protecting everything when there's still bullets flying around. The first order of business is fight the opposition. Of course you conveniently forgot that, or were hoping for more Iraqi civilian casualties, and the deaths of more coalition forces. That would have added more fuel to your POV.

Wolf

Cristobo.
Thank you for your symphaty although I do not agree with you about foreigners not having the right to critize Iceland.
A comparatively small nations as mine needs to listen and learn from foreigners.
That is educated and broad minded foreigners, not militaristic baboons.
We need to listen carefully because being small as we are we can get away with
doing stupid mistakes, like say, supporting the war in Iraq without ever having to take responsebilety for our actions. Traditionally we are a peace loving nation and therefore
many of us are disaponted in our government when it did support Bush/Blair. We should have been
neutral. Nobody here owns a real gun. Why should an American og British youth die in my name?

Gazpacho.
I am saddened by your ignorance.
The Icelandic welfare system is somewhere between US and Scandinavia.
If you ask me I prefer Scandinavia over the USA because so many of you aparantly have to crawl around on your knees and eat dirt just to survive. I prefer a state where hardworking people like me get rich eventually and people who are less furtunate get help because I pay some Taxes.
Yes I will critize USA for ever. Maybe you will have to kill me to silence me?
Be my guest. I will fall with pride and newer raise a hand against you.

totil,

Where on earth did you get the idea that we would want to silence you? You have every right in the world to have an opinion, and speak it, even if we, as individuals disagree. You also have the right to choose Scandinavian countries over the U.S. anytime you want. Rest assured, none of us intend any harm to them or you.

If you read the thrust of our argument, it isn't against people who disagree with us, but people who don't bother to discover the truth about why the U.S. attacked the Hussein regime. If Hussein's minions had attacked Iceland with terrorist attacks, and was intensifying the attacks over a period of time, you could rest assured the U.S. would be right there to help Iceland in their time of need. Even though you personally might not want that, I would imagine the vast majority of people in your fair country would more than welcome the assistance.

As for Americans eating dirt... really now? Don't you think that's a bit "over the edge?" Let's keep it on a level playing field, okay?

Wolf

Wolf,
Thank you for your clearly stated reply.
It seems to me that some of you think that critizing Bush is some kind of terrorist atack on the US. I also detected a almost threatening or at least
patronizing tone in som replies wich I find totally unexseptable. That is why I made these dramatic points.

I agree that my "eating dirt" comment was severe.
I was however appaled to see all the missery going on in your great country when I visited in 1999 and this is not the kind of society I want to see in my land.

I am afraid Hussein had nothing to do with the 11 sept atacks. Hussein was a member of an Arab-socialist party named Bath, historically the oposite of Islam extremists.

Best wishes

Totil,

As always, whatever Wolf states above is my view. Silencing people is only done under socialistic governments and is not an American idea at all. There is an American saying that my Dad taught me, "I don't always agree with the things you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." When you show your ignorance by criticizing the only semi-free country in the world, then I feel obliged to show mine about your country, that's all.
Iceland stands for peace, huh. Well good for you. I'm not for peace if it means that every two-bit terrorist in the world can affect the way I live my life. I can't and don't live my life that way.
I don't know and don't care how the Scandinavian countries choose to live. I am certainly not planning on leaving the U.S. to live in a Scandinavian cradle to grave paradise. You think that having to go to work to pay for the basic necessities of life eating dirt? I rather think that sitting around and waiting for your government to provide the necessities of life eating dirt. Don't worry though, many Americans also feel that they have to mortgage their lives to pay for the less fortunate here. And here, as elsewhere, the poor keep getting poorer.