Thanks Booklady

As for the particular incident in which a spanish journalist was killed, my opinion watching the news is that it was unjustified. If the tanker was a spanish soldier he would be by now jailed for incompetence and for killing someone without any reason. I don't agree how the spanish government has handled this incident.

Anyway, reading the opinions of Cristobo and Pim, I can see what the spaniards think of all this conflict.

For me is just incredible how the people care for this war that much, including demonstrations in front of the US Embassy in Madrid, and then allow France to be in three wars in Africa, in which they have 30,000 soldiers, and in which 3 million people had died; or forgeting any of the 35 wars currently causing thousands of deaths. My explanation to this fact is that the media and the oposition has managed to capitalize a stupid and unreasonable antiamericanism, in order to have some more votes.

How can a country be governed when almost every party says that the governmet must do what the polls say. There is no long-time vision, no place for unpopular decisions, no state sense.

We have a real problem, a structural and social problem, and it is that the majority of the spaniards are working against their own country. I'm sure that if this continues we will face an implosion, perhaps even a second civil war.

For me it is very disgusting to see how my countrymen are acting, even justifying violence against a political party (PP).

The real democracy happens when you can express your opinion in public freely. Please (spaniards) answer me this question: Can I express myself for this war without being called a "facha", "fascist" or assasin????

I won't give a euro for this country and its citizens. The day I feel this is not a true democracy evermore I will fly away to any other country with a real democracy, and not only a democracy for certain part of the population.

Fernando

thjis,

You may disagree with me on the rights of college level teachers if you want. That's your right. But the fundamental elements of teaching tells me that a teacher is not supposed to plant the seeds of a specific point of view in the minds of people by stating they advocate it. I refuse to accept academia's stance that they are allowed to be judge and jury on any issue related to humanity. That includes God, and whether or not he/she exists. If you can impose your values in a classroom, mainstream America has the same right. It isn't a domain you own, it's one we own as a society, and as a professor, or teacher at any level, your job is to create a thirst for knowledge, not pass judgment. Passing off errors from the past, like the teaching of American history, which also must be corrected to reflect the truth is not acceptable as an excuse for being able to promote your own agenda. It's rediculous to say that it was done before so it's acceptable now. It should never have been done, and it must be corrected in all areas of education.

You mentioned "programming" by Fundamentalist Muslims. When a professor insists that the students turn in papers that support their point of view, or they look at the response that disagrees - as critically as they do - and respond by failing students, they are imposing their values on the student and that's intolerable in our society. Of course, agreeing with the professor, and following their "instructions" like "good little soldiers" gives fantastic results. Go to the head of the class.

UN diplomacy. You'd advocate that? Have we been misinformed about something? I suggest you point out what the UN has done effectively for the last twenty-five years. Name one issue where they didn't argue over the situation based on their political ideology and/or their own gains? The UN has lost focus, and in my opinion, should no longer exist. I felt this way long before the issue of Afghanistan, as I watched them push their agenda for "restraint" as one nation after another fell in step with terrorism and genocide, for political reasons. That's not acceptable. I've watched as one war lord after another in Africa has gone on a rampage killing people from another tribe, and the UN sits back and "debates the issue," without any concern for the people being systematically killed in what's obviously genocide. I've watched as dictators and less than honorable governments have held their hand out for more money to build opulent surroundings for their ruling class, by withholding their votes on critical issues associated with the well being of the people of the world. I should accept this?

No my friend. The last straw was Saddam Hussein thumbing his nose at the world, because the UN lacked the guts to respond against him when he failed to deliver on sanctions. He'd become the poster boy for every nation that would defy them, and they sat back, and let it happen. Allowing a cancer like him to grow did nothing more than create more hotbeds of nations where terrorists could be trained, supported, and unleashed on the world, because nobody could do anything about it, since the UN was impotent.

You might want to read NEWYORKRED's postings a little closer. She's seen it all because she works with an organization that is trying to save lives, not barter them away like chips on a crap table. She's seen the pain, the hurt, and the lack of help people get from the UN, while fat cats sit back and enjoy the proceeds from the UN's offerings. Maybe it's time for a "sabbatical." How about taking a field trip? Spend a year or two with the people in the front lines of the tragedy of people, then come back, and tell us what your ideas are for the future. Offering these views up from an ivory tower of self-righteous indignation isn't acceptable.

I take umbrage with your characterization that I am a Rush Limbaugh fan. He's so far right, and totally out of the loop of reality the same as far left theorists are. I was also deeply upset by the Fox news "Told you so!" crap offered as well. These people do not represent mainstream beliefs in America, and if you think they do, your views are as radically far left, as theirs are radically far right. I also take umbrage with your comment that our numbers reflect a high number of "fair weather supporters." The polls tell me you're all wet on that one as well. Of course it works nice for you if you want to "take a shot at us," without having any facts to back it up. The polls have only drifted up slightly, and your alluding to all of these new advocates as being fair weather supporters is hypocritical at best.

Please! Enjoy your view from the ivory tower. Support the UN. Feel free to advocate a POV in your classes. Speak out all you want against us, and our beliefs. But remember one thing. The only reason those rights are guaranteed are because Americans have shed their blood to insure that right has been maintained for you.

Apparently you've conveniently forgotten that the people of Iraq didn't have that right under the butcher. Of course, as long as it didn't directly effect the orderly life of academia, and the UN was always there as a "buffer of truth ." You haven't had to face these realities.

I’m afraid you’ve missed some very important statements made by people out here. NEWYORKRED is not speaking from an ivory tower like you are. Red has been there, and works in the trenches of human despair every day in the field. But what she says doesn’t matter to you. When Booklady speaks about the persecution she’s seen within her own family from a dictatorial government, you conveniently ignore it. When those of us who have been in the hell of war, you act like we didn’t see what we did, it was all an illusion. If I remember correctly, that’s the same statement that Baghdad Bob offered us when the U.S. Army took over the area of Hussein's palaces and Baghdad’s airport. It was all an illusion. We weren’t there.

It’s funny. I would have sworn I saw American soldiers there. So when are you sitting down with Bob and talking about illusions again? You seem to be on the same page.

Wolf

Tara,

Just one question. How many people did you see demonstrating against Saddam Hussein in Iraqi cities prior to coalition forces taking control?

Isn't it ironic that they feel free enough to do this now, where Iraqis would have been murdered had they demonstrated against Hussein prior to coalition forces taking control?

Doesn't that tell you that there's something wrong with that issue?

Wolf

Fernando,

Please don't endict all Spaniards by what is happening in the streets. Even though we may disagree with their point of view, it's fantastic that they can express them. It wasn't all that long ago, that a demonstration against Franco would have led to a lot different reaction from the government.

A lot of what is happening in Spain is not unlike the demonstrations against the war we find here in the U.S. There are some people who have deep rooted convictions against war, but those that are most vocal, and the biggest problem are those who have their own agenda, and they almost always take the forefront in these arguments. For them, the demonstration has nothing to do with a fundamental belief that war is wrong, but because they have a political agenda that says "dispose of the government," for their own reasons. They also have money behind them, and that feeds their mission.

As for the press, just like in the U.S., they jump on the side which seems to offer the most support, and will sell more copy, or increase the viewing and listening audiences. It's business to them, and nothing more.

As for the polls, they are based on perceptions from media. They really don't matter that much.

As for the incident at the Palestine Hotel, I hope it is resolved properly. I'm not privy to what has transpired in the investigation, but know it is still going on, and until there is a definite answer as to what really happened, I will reserve my opinion. Rest assured, if it was an intentional act against the media housed there, I will ask that charges be lodged as well. We cannot allow this to be an issue that splits our beliefs because there are those who are trying to use it as a wedge to seperate the coalition.

You can be proud of being a Spaniard. You can also be proud of your stance on this issue. Do not let hecklers and mob action sway you from your beliefs. Democracy is too much of a treasure to throw away to mob violence.

Wolf

Hear,Hear,Wolf, as ever the MM Board true Statesman.

Following the sub-topic of how the news was represented, or not represented, I found this article that to me is fascinating, its about the Arab press. These folks, may or may not be a representative sample, but its refreshing to hear people awakening that perhaps there is another side to every issue:

The article came from Yahoo! News! click link for entire article

Cristobo,

I reread and remembered from page 6 of this thread that you called Iraq an unarmed country. Why didn't the Iraqis overthrow their own government if it is an unarmed country? It sure seems that us American's sure found a lot of these 'unarms'.

PIM seriously,

If I thought that these journalist were obstructing this war in a way that could have caused an American soldier casualty...I can only say this. There is not one American journalist's life, let alone foreign journalist's, more important than the life of one American soldier. I can understand it if a Spanish person, like I believe you are, can't understand this. American soldier's are our brothers, sisters, sons and daughters who protect are freedom and security. But if an American feels this way, he is spitting on our troops just like the stories about the troops arriving from Viet Nam.
Wolf, when I hear American posters trying to second guess our troops then I owe you my deepest, sincere, humble and genuine apology. I always thought the stories about Americans spitting on their own troops was a bit of an exageration. How could an American do this? Now, sadly, I see that I'm quite probably wrong. And I'm ashamed that I just can't get any more outraged about this concept than I am.

Gazpacho, with all due respect, I can't see how a cameraman in a 15th floor can be a threat to a tanker in a M2-Bradley with a 18mm cannon.

American troops must protect their own lives, but they must also avoid any civilian casualties. You can't just shoot everyone without a good reason.

It is not as the other spanish journalist killed. In that case was an iraqi missile that killed him and two american soldiers. Ok, he knew where he was and what he was doing. You can't expect a dictatorship to respect anyone, but we should expect the troops of a democracy to make a responsible use of force. That is what makes us different from them.

You know I'm for this war, but it must be conducted in a strictly way, otherwise our troops would be nothing but criminals, and our governments nothing but state criminals.

Just my point of view...

Fernando

Those in the left first complained that there were no shouts of joy,or jubilation etc. Then when we finally saw the joy, the jubilation, now they are saying that it's not enough people being joyous and jubilant. Then there are others that beleive the whole thing is a conspiracy, that it never occurred that it was a set up for those of us too gullible to believe what we saw.

Folks, stop being in denial, it did happen as it only could happen given the conditions. And I was happy for them.

Fernando,

You're right, a cameraman is no threat to U.S. troops. But journalists staying in a battle zone changes the rules of engagement, especially when one side is so desperate, that they will use these journalists as a human shield. I think these journalist are just as rabid for a story as the anti-war crowd says that President Bush was ready for war.

When an American soldier tells you to clear a battlefield, he might not have time to tell you twice.

I know these people are dedicated to their work, but so am I, and when I see lightning, common sense dictates to come off of a telephone pole.

A "cameraman" with binoculars and a walkie-talkie connection to his buddies in the bush certainly can be a threat to an armored vehicle, Fernando. Given the documented dispicable acts of Hussein's 'fedayeen', would it be a suprise if he was using the hotel as an observation post or was purposefully attempting to draw U.S. fire to the place?

I don't think an American M1A1 tank from less than a half-mile range hit the fifteenth floor of the Palestine Hotel, killing those journalists. The damage would have been much more sever.