"Maybe we can get one going in the USA to make things better"

Some will tell you that it already exists :-)

MadridMan,

Glad to see you spelled "dictatorship" with a small d, because that's all it was. I'm not for lack of freedom, but democracy for me is not one big beer-bash. Freedom implies a type of responsibility sneered at by the media.

In the late 70's, Spain was more peaceful, cleaner, and had much less crime. Shouldn't that be a goal for all freedom-loving people? Or is it just free handouts?

No doubt about it, the Fascist's have society way more organized. But who wants to be organized by force?
Gazpacho and Eddie wax nostalgic for the old days,
Maybe they'll break out in a rousing beer hall song,"Springtime for Hitler and Germany"!

Sorry Eddie, I meant to say Gazpacho and Carlos 11. I guess I'm not so efficient at times, I'd never make a good Fascist, too much Anarchist in me I guess

gazpacho, glad to see you spelled "democracy" above with small d - because that's all it is in most places - if even that.

Interesting how you compare the more peacful, cleaner 1970s Spain under a dictatorship to freedom-loving people when in the 1970s under Franco they had few freedoms. I have friends today in Madrid whose fathers were in jail for years in the 1960s and 1970s SIMPLY because they had (and shared) ideas that were different from the ruling dictatorship. Were THEY freedom-loving people? They were - and were jailed for it.

Imagine Tens of thousands of youths ORGANIZING (that's a BAAAAAD word, by the way ) a botellón in the 1960s or 70s under Franco. Thousands of those youths would've been slaughtered and the rest to jail for years, their lives ruined forever. And for what? For partying!?!??

Wasn't it Taiwan which was/is extremely safe and clean but then that American kid was caught stealing something and publicly whipped for his crime while others have their hands cut-off for more serious offenses. Sure! That'll keep people in line! Would you trade "clean and safe" for such brutality by your own government? Nevermind. I think I already know the answer to this question. People have to be responsible in their own societies, absolutely, and penalties must be served for breaking the rules. Agreed.

Reminds me of one president (small "p") recently stating, "We do not torture!". Uh-huh. Guess that depends on your definition of "torture". (Quick! Call the Webster Dictionary people and have that altered!)

It's a decision of choosing your lesser "evil". Either allow tens of thousands of youths peacfully break the anti-botellón law or have widespread riots where police are whacking kids on the heads with their sticks and dragging them across the streets. Choose. Blood or no blood? I choose no blood. Instead, do what you can to educate them on responsible alcohol consumption.

How many teenagers get together every spring break on USA's beaches and overindulge in alcohol, destroy public/private property, have unprotected sex, fall off hotel balconies, die of alcohol poisoning, get into fights? Answer: MUCH MORE than the tens of thousands in Spain! Isn't that also "disgusting"? Whaaa! "What happened to my clean and safe country?" Answer: It left LONG ago. We're now a world of overindulgence, consumption, & waste production. Imagine the USA's National Guard troops (if there are any left) sweeping the nations' beaches and some encounters, surely, breaking into riots! Wouldn't that make the papers? It probably does sometimes (with police) but we turn a blind eye to it now. "Eh! Who cares. Those crazy, drunken kids. They'll grow up someday." But we see it abroad and think, "OH MY GOD! What's happening to my beloved Spain??!!" We don't have to look very far in our own backyards to see it happening right here. (wherever you might live)

Saludos, MadridMan

gazpacho et al,
I still stand by my sentiments[ politics aside ].

MadridMan, it was Singapore not Taiwan where the US teenager was caned for vandalizing cars. Singapore also has the death penalty for drug trafficking and does not allow chewing gum, but to my knowledge they do not cut peoples' hands off. No one would ever accuse Singapore of being a western liberal democracy.

Just for the record: The botellon is really not about a noble struggle for human rights and dignity....it's about kids that are mad that it is still illegal to drink on public streets, at least in Madrid. The average attendee could care less about lofty goals and ideals, they just want to have a good time.

Unfortunately, it costs the Spanish taxpayers a fortune in municipal and national government employee overtime to oversee these affairs. It also disrupts tourism, commerce, traffic, and the rights of other. If you really want to stand up for your rights, become an activist and work through government channels to change the laws, but that would be less fun because you can't drink at city council meetings! The botellones accomplish nothing, other than wasting money and resources. I talk regularly with a friend that is a Madrid city police officer and he has kept me posted on this phenomenon. He has been hit with a rock once already by one of the peaceful attendees. It seems that they heave the rocks at the policia local, because they don't have helmets, the Cuerpo Nacional do have riot gear.

MM wrote -
"It's a decision of choosing your lesser "evil". Either allow tens of thousands of youths peacfully break the anti-botellón law or have widespread riots where police are whacking kids on the heads with their sticks and dragging them across the streets. Choose. Blood or no blood? I choose no blood. Instead, do what you can to educate them on responsible alcohol consumption."

Makes sense to me - as someone who did more than her share of politcal activisism and partying ... and then raised a daughter - while knowing oh so well what she could get into

Old adage - you can not demand obedience - rational and relevant explanations go a long way.

Nice speech MadridMan,

I didn't mean anything personal by pointing out how you spelled "dictator", and I apologize for typing Madridman again, not on purpose. But I stick with my original sentiments concerning how safe, clean and special Spain was before. Sorry if you don't understand it, but since you didn't live there then, I can understand that.

Just for the record, I don't know what kind of picture people are painting for you of late 70's Spain, but I never had to stumble over dead or unconscious bodies. I never saw the police, who had a very noticeable presence, by the way, accost anyone, except to ask for a cigarette now and then. My only encounter with the Guads is when they helped me get my car going in the mountains headed for Santander. They were very nice and respectful, like most Spaniards are.

I don't want a dictator to return to Spain. I would just like to see a more responsible government there. One that wasn't so extreme.

(Oh, I can hear it now how bad are government over here is with our nazi president.) Rant on!