My most sincere apologies go out to all the wonderful Spaniards we had whom once felt safe and at-home here on our message board.

Now all these warm & helpful people are being attacked and I can't blame them for not wanting to return. Why would one go someplace where they don't feel welcome?

To all Spaniards reading this but not participating in the discussions, I'm so truly & deeply sorry for this reaction by many many new members.

Sincerley, MadridMan

Thank you MM, I'll try to keep on just selecting the threads.
I usually tried to avoid the thread about politics, and although it could be interesting for a lot of people here to see our vision of what has happenned here and how is each one and so on, I'll have to avoid those threads again.
Don't worry for me, I have gone over ofenses.

You don't have to apologize for anything, MM.
You are a great American (aunque yo ya te he adoptado, compatriota!) and I KNOW that there are millions like you out there.

There are close minded people everywhere, here too.
But they must not undermine our will to participate and debate ideas, that's the main purpose of the Internet.

boink

Do not apoligize MadridMan! There is no reason for it.

I've been in this Message Board for almost two years. I like to help people who want to come here, I practice my english (which, believe it or not, has improved slightly), and I adore to share opinions and enrich myself with another culture and others opinions.

It has been a luxury to be able (and allowed by you) to post here whatever I wish to. I'm very thankful as a madrileño for the staunch support americans (and other foreigners) have show here in recent days.

I think that the absence of other madrileños have nothing to do with the "bashing" (new word to my english vocabulary learnt here...) a couple (a minimum little minority) of people has done here. There are extremists everywhere. I hope my fellow citizens come back soon. It is not that they don't like the board, they are out for tapas!

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Fernando

PD: That politics forum you have suggested would be a very good idea. That way the people who like them and can't shut up their mouths (like me ) would have an excellent place to voice their opinions without disturbing other who are not interested in nothing but how to enjoy their trips to Spain.

MadridMan, if I may ask, were my sentiments removed because of something I said, or the way I said it?

Ugh, I forgot to remove that tagline. My apologies.

MadridMan, I read your explanation in the other string, and accept your explanation.

I mainly wanted to post however, to express agreement with Fernando about a political thread, it would be an outstanding idea.

Wally, I don't think I've removed any of your postings - at least I don't recall doing it although there's a chance that you happened to post in the thread which began by someone calling Spaniards "a bunch of cowards". Since that person started the thread I couldn't remove his posting without removing the entire thread so poof, there it went out the window. Wally, your postings have been respectful and intelligent. Thank you for that.

CynicalWisdom: A Political Category is on the way. Seems a necessity now.

Please, Spanish friends, don't leave the board! This board has done so much to make the world a little smaller, and you are an enormous part of that! We can't afford to let the people who yell the loudest to dominate the conversations, especially since we have a history of being able to share information freely and respectfully here.

MadridMan - Thank you. It appears that I simply posted in the wrong area and you moved it accordingly.

I work very hard to keep my ego away from my keyboard. Last night/this morning I realized too late that I was disobeying my second rule: DNFTEC (do not feed the energy creature). I should have stopped at two replies and left it at that. I'm very sorry that things grew to silly proportions.

As with everything, there is always something new to learn with each step.

Again, thank you.

MadridMan, thank you for stating what many of us felt. I was truly saddened that folks failed to remember that what really mattered was that our Spanish friends just lost many family and friends last Thursday.

Governments come and go, and we can discuss the merits and demerits forever. But there is a time and place for everything. Those precious lives lost will never return, our Spanish friends need time to mourn. Let's give it to them. Please.

Well said, yourself, Booklady. It's not cool to kick a guy when they're down.

Thank you, MM. I just took the effort to register to answer your apologies for YOUR indescriptible bad behavour banning me from the forum.

It's nice to see that after all you have been rather angered. Stings, isn't it. It stung me when you kicked me out just because my points were not popular with PP spanish.

Well, it seems I am not the only one that disturbs those poor saint helpful people...



You are deserving this, and I can't be sorry for those 'saint' spanish who pused you to unfairly ban me form this board.

Ignacio

Madridman and Spanish friends,

I am one of those hard-headed conservatives who is disappointed with the Spanish vote, but like I told Fernando, you were there for us when it really mattered, and I believe, the first country to offer us help. This means a lot more to me than not wanting to support us anymore. I hate the idea of war. Especially when I think of the poor mothers losing children in our inability to cope with the region.

And I am so sorry if your support led to the death of Spaniards. Al Q are dirty-rotten b*** and I can't wait to live in a world free of them. And also, on a personal matter, I know this is going to affect train service in Europe and that is just a shame.

I don't personally like socialism, but I'm willing to give your new leader a chance. While I don't apologize for the other conservative posters on this board, after all, they are entitled to an opinion, it's time for cooler heads to prevail.

I like arguing with left-wing Spaniards and Americans alike. I try to understand their side of the issues, but more than often can't. So please, don't leave this board on my, or anyone elses account. After all, if I didn't value your opinions, I wouldn't check them out.

Censored wrote: You're Ignacio?! I haven't banned you at all. I'm sure of it. In fact, I haven't banned anyone for months! Don't jump to conclusions so fast. Maybe I've moved your thread to another (the new) forum category.

Saludos, MadridMan

UPDATE: I just checked your previous record and no, Ignacio, I didn't ban you. You still have access to the board. But I did, as you recall, RESPECTFULLY ask you to find other forums in which to participate because you were upsetting MANY of our regular members. That's all there is to it. It's really that simple. There are many many forums on the internet. Please find one that suits you. Thank you.

Also Ignacio, each person is only allowed one username so your newest one will be removed today.

Let's hope the pain of 3-11 heals, and the new government of Spain finds its place in the sun, and that place includes a warm relationship with the US.

I won't apologize to our Spanish friends because I can't do that for the next person, but I will say I wasn't pleased with the way many Americans acted in response to the elections held last Sunday. Somewhere along the way they lost sight of the very essence of what America stands for, the right to self-determination at the ballot box, and it's nobody's place to indict them for their decisions.

To MadridMan, all I can say is that you did a tremendous job keeping things in perspective, and not doing anything that was unfair to anyone. To be honest, I don't know how many of us could have reacted as fairly as you did during the crisis.

To my Spanish friends, I don't want to see any of you leave the board. We may fight and squabble at times like children, but that's because we all care about issues, and each other. It would be a cold world if we just posted, and didn't have emotions that go with them. Personally, in a cold world like that, I think al Qaeda would win. But they will not win here.

Wolf

You are wrong; in Spain, Al Qaeda has won.

Madrid Man, you have been something less than an impartial moderator. If unkind words were thrown at the Spanish here, sometimes people need a kick in the behind. After all, the new Spanish PM first words upon victory were mainly directed at Americans, and they weren't kind or respectful (he used the word "lies" referring to President Bush more than once). Since he has gone well out of way to establish a poisonous relationship with America from the very start, we're hitting back.

Europeans should remember that it's a two-way street; you can divorce America but we can also divorce you.

Wolf, thanks for your support. Really, I'm just about reached my limit with this headache.

So anyway, back to the topic at hand, I once again personally apologize to all the Spaniards who may be staying away from our forum because they may be feeling threatened or attacked. I really can't blame you. These last few days the message board has NOT been a warm-and-fuzzy place.

I imagine all this will blow over in a short period of time and we can get back to normal discussing the things we love so much about Spain.

Once again, I'm sorry you've been treated this way.

Sincerely, MadridMan

MM, after your letter, where you (truly) respectfully told me to leave, I tried to log in to your message board with my old user and password, and couldn't.

I don't think it's a coincidence.
I don't think you didn't know anothing about this.
Anyway, it's a shame that pressures from intolerant people who can't accept different points of view, and who start continuously annoying threads only looking for quarrel can make you tell any honest, well-behavoured member to go.

When I was reading all those threads about "spain bashing" and other similar post with political discussions involved I was wondering,'where is Ignacio'. I find it strange that he's not joining in and was about to e-mail you Madridman to ask if you stripped him off his membership 'coz I was curious. Lo & behold, he appears in another name!
I find it funny that he really cannot help it. But I'm glad Ignacio that you are alive & kicking. At first I thought you could be one of the victims.

Muacs! This is a kiss for u, Maricristi. Feel free to take it or not, and put it on your hand or cheek.

Hi there! I'm here!! Ignacio!!!!

Actually it's not. It's me, MadridMan. I'm testing Ignacio's account and it does work but didn't at first. It said the password was not correct. I honestly don't know why. So I did the following: "Rebuild Member State Files" and now it works as before. Anyway, it's true, I did respectfully ask Ignacio to find other places to spend his time so that we could return to some normalcy. There were also a number of Spaniards who did NOT attend the last Party With MadridMan in Madrid last April because they were concerned Ignacio would be there and there would be a serious political confrontation. We don't need that kind of confrontation here on the message board, not when other users feel threatened.

So there you go, Ignacio. I'm removing your newly opened user account of CENSORED.

Saludos, MadridMan

Okay. I'm back as MadridMan. Let's try to stay on topic here. Thank you.

I took it by my hand. Your political views are not that bad & disrespectful(compared to some new comers) and i find some of them amusing & interesting though I don't necessarily agree with them sometimes.

As an American, I believe the press has adversely influenced us all our perspective on the events in Spain. I believe the controversy on who won and who lost is nurtured by the press to sell their product. Besides the lost of life and human suffering, the initial effects of the bombings are the lost of security and safety people usually feel. This can lead to anger, frustration, helplessness, fear, and a desire for revenge. It is the responsibility of the Spanish people to elect their leaders; their anger was directed at their leaders. They removed them from authority. The commentary by the press leads you to conclude rather than allowing us to consider the implications of the events. To conclude the bombings were the only reason the Spanish people removed theirs leaders is too sensationalist. I am concerned too many Americans let the press think for them rather than think for themselves. I too apologize to our Spanish friends.

I agree that many Americans let the press think for themselves. I have also talked to many friends who barely even know what happened in Spain. "Oh a few people got killed, what was that about" WHAT??!! Some people I have tried to talk to about Spain barely know what happened! Yes, they've heard that there was a bombing, but that's about it. It's sad really.

I applaud the Spaniards for using their vote and to demonstrate what a true Democracy is all about. I hope that Americans will open their eyes and realize that what is going on in the world does affect us here at home.

And before anyone jumps down my throat for being unpatroitic, ask around. Do your friends/acquantinces know what happened in Spain? Do they care? Do they think it will have any affect on the U.S.? I'm just curious.

Jennita writes:
'I applaud the Spaniards for using their vote and to demonstrate what a true Democracy is all about. I hope that Americans will open their eyes and realize that what is going on in the world does affect us here at home.'

democracy
noun
(plural: -cies)
</font></li>
[*] government by the people or their elected representatives

[*] a political or social unit governed ultimately by all its members

[*] the practice or spirit of social equality

[*] a social condition of classlessness and equality

[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the common people, esp. as a political force
[ETYMOLOGY: 16th Century: from French démocratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek demokratia government by the people ; see demo-, -cracy]

A government of the People by the People, and for the People.

I too applaud the Spaniards.

--------------

Jennita,

A few responses...

"...Americans will open their eyes and realize that what is going on in the world does affect us here at home..."

You are right in one sense. Americans SHOULD open their eyes. They should read their history. Study their logic. Learn more about how the world really works. If they do, they will realize that the future does not belong to Europe nor the Middle East. It belongs to Asia and the Americas.

However, none of this has anything to do with Al-Q. If anything, America SHOULD reexamine world dynamics since 9-11 and realize that the much of the elite and "educated" of old Europe enjoys the fanciful theatrics of its political leaders and all of their hot air. We should admit that Europe's leaders have never cared about anything other than the elite of Europe. America should recognize that only she will feel the need to come to the aid of other countries. America should recognize that because she will take on such a burden she will always get more than her fair share of naysayers, apologists and critics. And America should admit once and for all that all the above will NEVER change and that it is best to close the book on Europe lest she lose her vitality.

"And before anyone jumps down my throat for being unpatroitic, ask around. Do your friends/acquantinces know what happened in Spain?"

I do not know anyone who doesn't know...but in all of my travels over the past 20+ years, I have found overseas Americans to be as knowledgable and globally senstitive as any international travelers. Comparing apples with apples, Americans hold their own quite comfortably. Don;t buy into the media garbage. Are their pockets of ignorance? Of course. But I am sure if I quizzed a farmer from each of Extremadura, the Pampas, and Texas, I am sure they will score roughly the same. And if I quizzed investment bankers in London, New York, and Hong Kong, chances are they will score roughly the same. And finally, if I quiz young 14 year old kids from anytown Spain, US, and say, South Africa, yep, they will score roughly the same.

Do they care?

Their reaction was probably, "How horrible! What cowards and what evil." Those that had been to Spain I am sure felt a hurt in their hearts. As per usual, many have donated in some fashion or expressed their grief in some overt way.

My question to you. Do you think people in Kuwait send cards to people likked in Oklahoma City? Sent donations? HOw about to the victims of the Cole Bombing? Did the French set up a fund to help victims of the Bali Bombing? America and Americans bleed for the oppressed, yes, even when another American has caused that bleeding. Yet who bleeds for America? And if such an asymmetry continues for much longer, should America continue to care in anything but the most superficial way as has been the "caring" received by America and Americans?

Do they think it will have any affect on the U.S.?

Tougher question since "it" turned into three or four things within the space of a week. The bombing itself? Yes, that Al-Q won't stop until they are stopped literally. I think those on the fence realize more and more that al-Q will continue to kill until they are wiped out. Yes, killed and their networks rooted out. I think Americans also realize that the Cold War practice of coddling dictators has started to come back and haunt us. Yes, in our efforts in Panama, Agghanistan, Grenada, and Iraq, we have received zero international support. Frankly, I think many Americans think that supporting dictators and continuing to support them makes more sense than it ever did. For this last point, you can thank the cowardice of world leaders.

Amen

Fup

Almohada
Just for the record, there was a Saudi millonaire who sent a very generous donation (and I mean it, millions of dollars) when 9-11 to help the city of New York in those hard moments. Giuliani rejected harshly the money.
We all cried with you in those days, don`t be unfair. I don`t know anyone who ever says "they deserve it" or anything like that when an American GI dies in Irak.
As to the thread, I think the Spanish-bashing in these days simply reflects the internal politics of the US, rather than their opinion on Spaniars. Let`s face it, the average American knows little of Spain or Spanish politics, mainly because Spain is only one more country, and not an important one. There is nothing wrong on that. When an American says Spaniards are a bunch of cowards, I think he really means "Democrats are a bunch of cowards, vote for Bush"
On the other hand, leftists in America have been pouring the most flattering comments on Spain these days. See for example
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=33&ItemID=5163
You know what? Spain has been bashed for centuries, since Erasmus of Rotterdam first said "Hispania non placet" in the XVI century. The most common grounds for comtempt were that Spaniards are lazy, stupid, violent, cruel and not trustworthy.
But as far as I know, never to this day, no one ever accused the Spanish people of cowardice. That is why, apparently, no one feels too offended around here: we all know it is sheer BS.

There's no need to apologize.

I was busy the past days and couldn't read the "offensive" messages. But, anyway, there is always people who talk -or write, in this case- words that could offend someone. Sometines, I've read thoughtless messages from certain spaniards in this board, maybe I should apologize too...

If you go anywere in the world, as if you read any message board, you will find every kind of persons. Many of them will be friendly or at least reasonable, and some of them will perhaps be unpleasant, egoistical, small-minded or even agressive.

You know, you can enjoy a visit to the jungle, but there will be annoying mosquitos too. It's better to forget the mosquitos and admire the landscape. I think that no one felt really offended.

Ignorance and immature speech always find a way to emerge, as an unwanted guest in a party. That's no reason to stop the party.

This is a nice board with nice people writing on it, why should I leave it?

In addition, I need to practice my english, man! I hope that, in 20 or 30 years, it will become good enough to save you all feeling ashamed for my persistent crimes against the Shakespeare's language.

Un abrazo.

According to most of the media I have seen here
most of the Spanish people were against involvement in Iraq in the first place.

You're right, Grulla. Common numbers are between 80-90% of Spain's population which were against the war in Irag from the very beginning. And so when their leader sent their troops to a war they didn't support they decided to get even in the voting booth. Buh-bye.

Saludos, MadridMan