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#63549 - 06/19/03 03:17 PM Re: ETA kills again
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
You don't excuse me? Oh, what a pitty... Believe me that it won't make me sleep even a minute less.

Anyway, just to clarify some of your (of course unbiased, unpoissonous, and impartial) statements, let me remember that:

1) The two closed newspapers (Egin and Egunkaria) were closed becuase their managers were found guilty of using the business resources to finance ETA. Let me remember also that the staffs of both rotatives have founded another two newspapers in sustitution of the two closed.

2) Herri Batasuna changed its name to Batasuna, then to Euskal Herritarrok, then to Sozialista Abertzaleak. They are the same party (with almost the same members, and the same properties). Jarrai was not a political party, but the Herri Batasuna's (illegal) youngsters association whose objective was to make street terrorism (burning ATM, public telephones and attacking basque policemen with molotov cocktails). Hasi was not a political party, but an association founded by Herri Batasuna to finance itself abroad, and which was found guilty to drive funds to ETA (by judge Garzón).

2) Judges are not nominated by political parties, they achieve that status by passing a public contest. The only ones nominated by the Government are the State's Attorney and a Board of Judges (Consejo General del Poder Judicial).

3) The President of the Basque Parlament is the only one who can dissolve a political group as is in the Basque Parlament. As the delegate of the sovereignity of the basque electors he has been asked to dissolve the political group by the Supreme Court (which can't execute the resolution by itself, but order him execute). He has not comply with a legal sentence, and that is legally punished by law.

4) The poor youngsters you are referring to are nothing but terrorists. Perhaps for you to burn alive two policemen or destroy public property as a way to infund terror is another thing, but for me is not.


#63550 - 06/19/03 03:42 PM Re: ETA kills again
MadridMan Offline

Executive Member

Registered: 05/06/00
Posts: 9072
Loc: Madrid, Spain (was Columbus, O...
Is ANYONE ELSE having a not-so-odd-sensation of Deja Vu? rolleyes
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#63551 - 06/19/03 05:05 PM Re: ETA kills again
Zzeus11 Offline

Registered: 09/08/00
Posts: 56
It is Deja Vu all over again! Yogi Berra

#63552 - 06/20/03 04:31 AM Re: ETA kills again
Cristobo Carrín Offline

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 136
Loc: Asturias
This damned "deja vu", or rather BOREDOM, is quite frustrating.
I am sick of the Basque issue. Year after year, Spanish media spit their propaganda about evil separatists and noble constitutionalist leaders. Oh, please!!!! It is all so stupid...
I wonder what happens with my countrymen. People just believe what they are told, like if the voice of God had whispered from above "behold, Arzalluz bad, Aznar good". That`s the most common reaction amidst Asturians, but in Madrid it is even worse, there are many people there who actually HATE Basques. It is a shame the way TV and radio stations have prompted hate among two peoples which have no reason to hate each other.
I think Atutxa is a hero, one of the few heroes I have seen in my life. He defied ETA for years, he suffered numberless death threats, and he might even go to prison for not obeying the Spanish government.
My reasoning is quite simple:
1-Basques don`t feel Spanish
2-They have clearly supported in the polls the independence process that Ibarretxe has been unfolding these latter years.
3-Therefore, the only logical response it is to set a date for conversations about independence. Any other option would mean a violent imposition against a peaceful nation (the Basque one).
I hope one day we, Asturians, follow their example.

#63553 - 06/20/03 08:29 AM Re: ETA kills again
Castiza Offline

Registered: 09/11/00
Posts: 176
Loc: Madrid
And I'm a pure bred castilian, don't feel Spanish, don't feel identified by Spanish stereotypes and also want Castille to be freed.

Castilla is not Spain. ¡Vivan los Comuneros! cool

P.D: There's so much nonsense in calling a gang of young **** not terrorists. What are we suppose to do when they try to burn policemen alive? Sending them home with candies? Come on!

#63554 - 06/20/03 09:02 AM Re: ETA kills again

Right on, Cristobo!

I have read you a lot, and I support your position in most issues. And it is a sophisticated and documented one, as proved before. These three steps are the logical ones to follow, in our case, and in any case where people wants to secede.


I think that it is clear by now, no matter how you say it, that several parties and newspapers have been forbidden, even if they have sometimes and with greater difficulties been able to regain part of their former reach, in an uncertain legal status (because the'll soon be closed again probably). You also forgot o speak about Hasi, and there are others whose name I can't remember now. By the way, in Jarrai maybe people who belong to batasuna and others that do not, but it had a legal different personality (when it existed).

I have to leave now. I'll edit this message later to speak about judges (what you say, simply, is false, as usual) and Basque Parliament.


As you can see here: Page of the law magazine "iuris lex (spanish)" , the regulations of the Basque Parliament give the power to dissolve poltical groups of parlamentaries only to the Parliament through a votation . As you can see (if you want too, because who doesn't want, doesn't see), the Supreme Court is asking the President of the BP for something he ins't legally entitled to do, and which he has no powers to do.

It's like sueing Aznar for not making a law, which he cannot do, because in the spanish parliament, just as in the basque one, it's the Parliament who makes laws, not the President. Ask your dad. rolleyes laugh

Besides, if the judicial power can make the parlamentaries vote one or other way, they are invading the legislative power competences, which is most dangerous for democracy (provided it still exists in here, besides of the outside mask).

About judges:

The composition of Constiturional Court, Supreme Court and others is pacted openly, and everybody who reads newspapers know this in Spain, by the major parties within the whole of the spanish Parliament, this means the spanish-nationalist parties a.k.a. "españolistas" PP and PSOE, and their members are selected between the proposed by them in halfs aproximately. Either you don't read or you are lying as usual.

Fernando and Castiza:

I have never heard about any policemen burnt by people from Jarrai. I asked at work yesterday, and my mates didn't know of that. Made a search today in the net ... and guess ... nothing!


Again, newspapers closed because they gave money to ETA, parties who did the same ... What about the proofs? Until now, nothing has really been proved. A couple of circunstancial evidences, and a Court that is strongly anti-sedecion is enough in this banana republic. If I was ashamed to belong to this country (not nation) before, now, I cannot stand it anymore, it's an overwhelming shame, Spain behaves more like Morocco regarding respect to law, that's why the french say "Africa begins in the Pyrennees".

Another point of view on the BC, tortures, imprisonments that go against law, ... (in English, long)

Spain is undergoing deep investigation by European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT) .

You prefer photos? Text in English - Not to show to kids! Another
For those who want los of aditional info on this shame.

I haven't been able to find any documentation on Jarrai legal form (if any), so I won't discuss that anymore, however, how can you explain that it was legally dissolved when it didn't legally exist?

There are others, like AuB, Haika, Segi, Ekin, KAS, besides Egin, Gara, ..., gestoras Pro-amnistía (an ONG trying to help tortured isolated prisoners)...

I am not discussing AGAIN statistics. You probably don't want to count the 130.000 + nule votes of those supporting Batasuna who did not give their vote to PNV/EA, that is probably the difference.

#63555 - 06/20/03 09:32 AM Re: ETA kills again
Roe Offline

Registered: 10/17/01
Posts: 176
Loc: california
We´ve all got opinions and they´re not going to get changed by what is said here. Write to a newspaper or some proper avenue to share your thoughts about this if your feelings are so strong. Let´s just lets leave this topic alone for now....

#63556 - 06/20/03 10:38 AM Re: ETA kills again
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1551
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Just two things:

Basques want independence? No. 40-50% want independence, not all of them.

Ignacio, please keep yourself informed. Jarrai was an allegal (with no juridic status) organization. And I did say what Hasi was.


#63557 - 06/21/03 01:24 PM Re: ETA kills again


Who are you, a judge too, who can tell me wether I can post or not depending on your point of view?

I know you are not changing your mind, and I just don't care, since you have lived in the BC for some months and you seem to have learnt nothing. You know,? I do not only write for you.

And about leaving this topic, if you are disgusted by reading me, then, how must I be reading a d*mmned post with all kind of lies everytime ETA acts?

I am fed up of Fernando and Pim's attitude, and they are always the ones who start this polemis topics once a month. I have been sufferin this. Why don't you tell them to stop posting on this?

Now, nationalist people in the basque country have been driven together like never before. Remember Berthold Bretch poem? This is a variation on the BC, made by a nationalist who saw them close Egin (newspaper with a nationalist left look), and now complains because they have closed Egunkaria (apolitic), and repents not having enforced Egin's defence:

revisitando a brecht
Primero vinieron y encarcelaron a la Mesa Nacional de HB. Naturalmente, no protesté, por- que yo no era de ese partido, y una voz interior me decía que se lo tenía bien merecido.

Luego vinieron y se negaron a acercar los presos. Tampoco protesté, porque no tengo ningún amigo o familiar en la cárcel, e incluso sugerí que si estaban tan lejos era porque algo habrían hecho.

Luego cerraron "Egin". Tampoco protesté, porque ese periódico no era el mío y siempre me había parecido un panfleto para ultras abertzales.

Más tarde vinieron y organizaron una campaña macroperiodística para relacionar al PNV con ETA. Tampoco protesté, porque el péndulo que aplica ese partido (a la una, abertzale; a la una y media, autonomista; a las dos, español) será efectivo pero no es ético.

Luego aventaron la gran falacia de que 200.000 vascos se han exiliado a causa de la limpieza étnica. Tampoco protesté, porque me siento muy cercano a todas esas personas que no pueden tomarse un café en Euskadi sin escolta, y me pareció una exageración explicable por la situación que sufren.

Luego ilegalizaron Batasuna. Tampoco protesté, porque yo nunca votaré a Batasuna y, por tanto, mis derechos como elector quedaban intactos.

Pero el jueves cerraron "Egunkaria". Entonces sí que protesté, porque éste era mi perió- dico, y entonces me acordé también del encarcelamientode la Mesa Nacional de HB, y protesté; me acordé de los presos, y protesté; me acordé del cierre de "Egin", y protesté; me acordé de la campaña contra el PNV, y protesté; me acordé de la falacia de los 200.000 exiliados de Euskadi por la limpieza étnica, y protest*; me acordé de la ilegalización de Batasuna, y protesté y protesté y protesté... pero ya era tarde, muy tarde. Alberto Basterretxea - Loiu

#63558 - 06/21/03 02:51 PM Re: ETA kills again
Booklady Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 1664
Loc: U.S.A.
With all due respect to everyone's opinion, the worst thing a society can do is censor public dialogue. While this board is not a "country" it does represent a microcosm of a society of users.
I believe that if users choose to discuss issues that are important to them they may do so.
The world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.
--St. Augustine (354-430)

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