I don't agree even a little bit with you ERT (with all due respect).

As a spaniard I think that there is a wide community of hispanics with which we share a common culture, a common language and even the same religion.

As a matter of fact, I think that the ties between us are much stronger than those which link the Commonwealth for example.

We have a bunch of writters with a prolific career, each country has his own spanish language academy and they share and coordinate the rules so the language as certain unification (flexible rules so that the diversity is not erased).

Our way of being and behaving is quite similar (obviously with differences normal in people who lives thousands of kilometers away), we have customs which are quite similar. Our religion is the same (in general).

Internationally there is a close coperation between our countries. We have inmigration and commercial agreements and do normally have a certain degree of coordination in international forums.

As for the Vanity Fair article... I wouldn't mind. It is a stupidity written by an ignorant.

Fernando

"As a spaniard I think that there is a wide community of hispanics with which we share a common culture, a common language and even the same religion."

I´m sure you are saying that because when you say that you have in your mind Argentinians, Uruguayans, and other "Hispanics" of pure European stock (be them in Mexico, Venezuela or wherever they could be). As you are living in Madrid I don´t think that you believe that the Ecuatorians, Peruans, Dominicans that are living here have anything to do with us or to the "Hispanic" culture you have in your mind. Be honest, do you think the Ecuatorians living in Madrid are similar to us or to the Argentinians in any sense (exceptuating the language)?.

For the average American when they think about "Hispanics" they are talking about the Mexicans, Hondurans that are legally or illegally in their country. For that reason "Hispanics" are considered an ETHNIC minority that deserves Affirmative Action. Do you think We Spaniards or Argentinians need an affirmative action to enter to an University in the US?.

Do you honestly think you have anything in common with the following people?

http://web.mit.edu/21f.714/www/raices/bra11.jpg

(this is how most central and southamericans look like and this is what an average American have in mind when thinking about "Hispanics")

or this people:

http://www.adidharma.net/bday/los-mexicanos.JPG

I think when you talk about "Hispanics" you have in mind the following kind of people (that is the minority in most central and southamerican countries). This people probably represent the "Hispanic culture" you are referring and not the ones in the above links:

http://www.mre.gov.br/Imagens/FOTOS/jun2000/villalba.jpg
http://www.mre.gov.br/Imagens/FOTOS/jun2000/bicudo.jpg

"We have a bunch of writters with a prolific career, each country has his own spanish language academy and they share and coordinate the rules so the language as certain unification (flexible rules so that the diversity is not erased)."

And who are they?. They are pure Spanish descendants (like the ones in the last 2 links). Can you tell me any southamerican writer, painter, artist that look like the people in the 2 first links?. The elite in those countries (cultural, economic, social elites) are normally the Spanish descendants, which represents in most of the Central or Southamerican countries a low percentaje (between the 1% of the total population in El Salvador, a 8% in Mexico, to a 60% in Argentina). Go to Mexico and you will realize the brutal segregation between the european-descendant Mexicans and the noneuropean population (which is the 92% of Mexico). There are even neighbourhoods, villas and clubs in Mexico that don´t allow non-european looking mexicans to get in.

"Our way of being and behaving is quite similar (obviously with differences normal in people who lives thousands of kilometers away), we have customs which are quite similar. Our religion is the same (in general)."

Do you think your way of behaving is similar, your customs are the same as the way of behaving, etc of the people of this photo?

http://web.mit.edu/21f.714/www/raices/bra11.jpg

or probably you think that your way of behaving is similar to the people in this photo?

http://www.mre.gov.br/Imagens/FOTOS/jun2000/villalba.jpg

The people in the first photo represents the 85-90% of the habitants in Central and Southamerica and the people in the second photo represents the 10, 15% of the total population of Central and Southamerica. Do you think the people in the second photo should
be considered as an ethnic minority?. No. The "Hispanics" are considered an ethnic minority because most Hispanics that emigrate to the US are similar to the people of the first picture.

"Internationally there is a close coperation between our countries. We have inmigration and commercial agreements and do normally have a certain degree of coordination in international forums."

What kind of coperation are you talking about?. I don´t refuse the facts that a lot of ties do exist between Spain and Central and Southamerica but if you are honest you will realize that the relation is mainly managed between Spaniards and their descendants in Central and Southamerican.

For example who were the Mexicans that allowed the Spaniards to emmigrate to Mexico when We had the Civil War and the Dictadura?. Who was Lazaro Cardenas?. He was a pure Spanish descendant.

Who are the people that manage the Academia de la Lengua Española in the American countries?. Spanish descendants. Who are the ones that go to the Iberoamericans gatherings each year?. Spanish descendants dirigents with Spain´s and Portugal prime ministers.

I think you´ve never been to Central and Southamerica. The ones that claim more effusively to be "Hispanic/Latino" are precissely the ones that have the less right to claim so. And the ones that don´t claim it are precissely the ones that could claim it.

I'm sorry but I can't confirm if I have something in common with the people you showed on the pictures... at least not by their skin color or ethnia, I should have first to talk with them.

In any case, I have had interaction with hispanics of many ethnias and that is the reason for which I think as I have posted.

Do you know who Garcilaso de la Vega was? One of the greatest spanish writers of any time... he was 100% indian.

Fernando

I think you are confusing speaking the same language (that makes a lot to give the appareance of similar culture and to get along better) to having the same culture.

I posted those pictures to show the examples of the types of immigrants we have in Madrid. I don´t think many Spaniards would agree with you in thinking that they have the same culture than the people in some of the pictures I´ve posted as I´m also very sure that many madrileños don´t think AT ALL that they belong to the same culture as the thousands of Ecuatorians we have in Madrid.

I've really tried to understand you ERT, I've read your last couple of posts and frankly nothing of what you say holds any water.

You lack the [censored] to say you hate a race out front and use whatever passing thread you can to start what seems to be in your imagination 'a debate'.
All the photos you have chosen could be from any one country in Latin America/world,even Argentina. I don't know why you have a fixation in drawing distinctions between Argentina and Uruguay to Ecuador and Peru to illustrate your ignorance.
Everyone knows the immigration situation as it stands, what planet are you on??!

I find it really funny how people get so angry for something that unimportant.
Me, myself, I'm a Spaniard studying my PhD in Latin American Literatures & Cultures. This plural indicates something, I guess. There's a huge diversity in the Latin American cultural world. We simply needed a word to summarize all. What do these places have in common?? Spanish heritage. How could we call it?? Hispanic. There's not much in common between Argentina and Perú, or Cuba and Panamá, or Spain and East Harlem, or Miami and Cuzco. There's a language and a very rich cultural background... I feel with the same intensity Fernando Vallejo (Colombian), Fernández de Lizardi (Mexican), García Márquez (Colombian), Carlos Fuentes (Mexican), Pablo Neruda (Chilean), Jorge Luis Borges (Argentinian), Luis Buñuel (Spanish), Nancy Morejón (Cuban), Arturo Ripstein (Mexican), Mario Benedetti (Uruguayan), Sandra Cisneros (American), Edmundo Paz Soldán (Bolivian), Diego Rivera (Mexican), Cervantes (Spanish)... They're all the same for me... just part of a very rich culture called "Hispanic"

miche

I don´t mind if you understand me or not, I just ask you to don´t insult me because I hadn´t do it and if you had the "[censored]" (as you have said) to do it you will do it personally and not through internet. You are the one who is imaginating things, check into yourself to see if you are a racist because that is the word you often use, I´m quite sure that the only racist in here is you. If you are not a racist I´ll invite you to live during 10 years in a neighbourhood full of gypsies with your family. Will you do it, don´t you?. Yes...I know that you will say through internet that you will live with them during 10 years because that is politically correct...but in reality you will not do it and if you did it you will run away during the first month to a new neighbourhood.

As I think you are from England, do you consider Jamaicans or Australian Aborigins to belong to the "Anglo culture", do you consider them "Anglosajons"?. Would you like that the Jamaicans went to the US saying that they are English?. Would you like that the English will be considered an Ethnic minority because someone said that the Jamaicans, Australian Aboirigins and English belong to the same culture?. I just don´t like it because I´m a proud Spaniard, proud of my country and of his History and I don´t want that Spain, the Spanish language ot the Spanish culture is abused by people that don´t have a drop of Spain´s blood. May be if We had done what you ENGLISH did in Northamerica (exterminating the native populations, search for "Sand Creek" for example, or the laws that allowed the hunting of the indians in the XIX century with rewards, or taken them to reservations), there wouldn´t be the confusion that now exist with the so called "Hispanic culture", which is basically the culture of Spain, Spaniards and their direct descendants in America.

If you say NO, you will have to understand that many Latinoamericans countries don´t belong to the "Hispanic culture" and that many are not "Hispanic". In Ecuador, Bolivia, Panama, EL Salvador, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua the presence of the Spaniards during the colonization was minimal, those territorries dependended from the main Virreinatos but had very few Spaniards on them (mainly burocrats and "priests"), so the chance that they have any cultural similarities with us is the same as a Jamaican or an Australian Aborigin having the same cultural similarities with England or the US.

Späin,

You give me the reason again. 90% of all of those people that you mentioned are pure Spanish descendants or of pure European stock.

Maybe you´ve never been in Mexico, Argentina, or Paraguay. I´ve been there, I know the people in there, I know what they problems are and I know that the only country in America that could have similarities with us in all America is Argentina. The rest NOT AT ALL. If you talk to the people there you will realize THE BRUTAL RACISM between them. Even light skinned african-dominicans are racist against black-skinned african-dominicans. And Fernando you didn´t answer me when I ask you if you think that the Ecuatorians living in Madrid belong to the same culture as us, or that they behaviour, customs or way of seeing life is similar to us?. You know the truth but you don´t want to say it. Most madrileños will never think that the Ecuatorians belong to the same culture as us (which it is absurd by the way, Spain is a western European country with occidental values and I don´t think Ecuatorians have anything to do with it) as they will think that the Dominicans, Peruans, Hondurans, Panameños, ... don´t belong to the same culture as us if they knew them.

By the way ERT, as Spain says, it doesn't mind. You feel things in a way, I feel things the opposite. You say that you don't know many spaniards who will think south and central-americans are hispanic, and I tell you that I know a bunch of people that think my way.

That's all, you are not going to convince me, nor I'm trying to convince you.

Fernando

Fernando,

It is not a matter of feelings, it is a matter of being objetive. If someone asks you if you think Ecuatorians and Dominicans are from your same culture you have to answer with objetivity (giving reasons for it) not with what you think you feel. If there are no reasons that support your position you are just not saying what the reality is. I can feel that Japanesse are very close to Madrileños in culture becase they are friendly with madrileños in Madrid but if someone asks me if We have something in common with them I will have to start to think objetively in what We have in common and what We don´t have in common.

I used to think the same about Central and Southamerica. I used to think that We shared a lot of things, until I lived there and I realized that they are world´s apart in most things, in behaviour, way of seeing life, customs, and everything.

The people that you say that they consider them "Hispanic" are the ones that don´t know a thing about those countries. I used to think the same until I start to know those people and those countries.

What do you know for example about Honduras?. I just know that their capital is Tegucigalpa. Nothing else. What do you know about El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, ....?. So HOW can you say that the people from Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemal, Nicaragua, ... belong to the same culture as you when the only think you know about them is the capital of their country???. Just because they speak Spanish???. That is the main problem of this issue, We see Central and Southamerica as a whole but We don´t realize that inside that whole there are many countries and many people that don´t relate at all with us.

And please answer my question Fernando. Do you think that the Ecuatorianos that live in Madrid belong to the same culture as us, that We share the way of seeing life, our culture, our customs, our behaviour???. If you say NO you are just giving me the reason (you can then extrapolate it to most latinoamerican countries with the same argument), and if you say YES you are just being emotional and 0% objetive, ie, no reasons and arguments to defend your position in favour of your feelings. Conclusion: no similarities, no similar culture in terms of objetiviness.

Yes, I think that equatorians have a common culture with us. Moreover, I prefer southamericans as inmigrants than any other kind of inmigrants, because due to our common background they will merge easier with us.

This is not a matter of objectiveness, I have given you both objective and subjective reasons. If you don't believe they share a common culture with you that's fine, I respect your opinion though I don't share it.

To put it clearer: Probably less than 10% of central and south americans are direct descendants of spaniards. But 90% have adopted our culture or have merge it with their native one. Considering these two facts, it doesn't matter to me who their ancestors were, what it does matter is that they have a culture similar to mine, which is what we are discussing about.

Fernando