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#62563 - 08/15/02 03:33 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
GREAT POSTS!!!!
Wolf, your historical knowledge of Spain is incredible. Aster too, I'm very impressed! I think this topic CANNOT be discussed enough (so please don't close it señor madrid) Right now I'm reading a biography on Franco and I think police state might be a more appropriate term(even though no one can be boxed into a term)given Spain's rich regional areas and peoples and several other factors.
Consequently, understanding the history is a first important step, but only a first. In order to iradicate nationalistic terrorism, hard choices must be made. This could lead us in a philosophical direction. Should a culture be controlled for a period of time to combat the interests of the many; especially if that culture has been used to terrorize? Utilitarianism....hmmmm, let's ponder.....

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#62564 - 08/15/02 03:52 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Asterault,

The Gobbler. Gawd! Breakfast! Unbelievably bad! It must have been left over from around 1970, on a warming tray - eek

Needless to say, I won't go back there. I may even avert my eyes when I drive past it next time. It sure doesn't compare to Basque cooking, which is superb (A save - Spanish talk - laugh ). In fact, when you brought it up, I thought about a great breakfast or brunch we had in Bilbao. It was complete with about six different meats, four breads, pastries, eggs, and an unbelievably great home made Sevillan orange marmelade. We were given some of the marmelade to take home, and we still have one jar left. I have to go back and get more. Six jars just doesn't make it long enough - smile

Oh! Before I forget! It was an interesting "love/hate" relationship between the Catholic Church and Franco. I'm still trying to unravel that one.

Wolf

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#62565 - 08/15/02 05:17 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Cooter Offline
Member

Registered: 02/27/02
Posts: 86
Loc: Boston, MA USA
Hmmm...Franco and Fascism, eh? Some would argue that Franco was never a fascist, but rather a shrewd pragmatist who would utilize whatever ideology was convenient. Witness that while Jose Antonio (a real fascist's fascist, by Gawd!) was idolized as a martyr in Franco's Spain, the rest of the falangist leadership was never given much power. Hedilla was jailed and disgraced, and even Serrano Suñer, who was increasingly pro-fascist, was put out to pasture once it became clear that the Axis was not going to win the war.

While the Carlists were less of a threat to Franco than the falange could have been, Franco effectively neutralized their leadership as well. Let's not even mention the traditional Catholic politicians, like Gil Robles, who had zero influence on Franco and were often exiled from Spain themselves.

Oh yeah...Basque cooking, delicious. In San Sebastian (or Donostia, if you'd rather), I had the best chipirrones in the world. I'm going back in a month, and am going to eat pintxos until I fall down.

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#62566 - 08/16/02 04:53 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Come on guys, let's get to some solution posts.

"HISTORIANS, SOCIOLOGISTS, AND POLITICAL SCIENTISTS LEND ME YOUR POSTS!"

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#62567 - 08/17/02 12:10 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Fernando Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/05/01
Posts: 1563
Loc: Madrid, Spain
As for the ikurriña in Navarra: The ikurriña is the official and legal flag for the Comunidad Autónoma del País Vasco (autonomous community of the Basque Country), while the Comunidad Foral de Navarra has its own official flag.

In some councils of Navarra Batasuna, the political arm of ETA, governs. In those councils the spanish flag is not present, nor the Navarra's one, which is ilegal by the spanish laws. The autonomous government of Navarra proposed to make a law to force those councils to show at least the Navarra's flag, not showing the ikurriña (which is, in fact, the official flag of other autonomous community).

The problem here is when a respected symbol as the ikurriña is used by radicals and extremists to make things ofensive to other ones (this case the navarros).

As for "Euskal Herria" is a term forged by the ultranationalists of the Basque Country to refer an hypothetical Great Basque Country that would include Navarra (in which the nationalist political parties obtain less than the 10% of the votes) and the french Department of the Occidental Pyrenees (in which the nationalist parties obtain almost no representation).

The "respected" Sabino Arana was racist even when he distinguished between the basque vizcainos and the rest of the basques (which for him were lazy, awful, bad looking and not pure vizacainos).

The same as with the III Reich but in miniature...

Fernando

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#62568 - 08/17/02 12:21 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
"The problem here is when a respected symbol as the ikurriña is used by radicals and extremists to make things ofensive to other ones (this case the navarros)."

Great point Fernando....tough decisions have to made was my point. It would be great if the Basques made them on their own. However, fear, I think, is too great in many areas. In my opinion, all of Spain should stand behind the Basques in these tough decisions in the short term and in the long term the Basque culture will again not be feared and it will remain in status right along with all of the other great regional cultures of Spain.

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#62569 - 08/19/02 01:50 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
tonytorero Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 19
Loc: Madrid, Spain via Kansas City,...
Quote:
Believe it or not, we do educate the world. There are, of course, scuzzy newspapers who do thrive on reporting the worst. But that is not the majority. Don't lump "the media" as one big evil for merely reporting aspects of the world you may not wish to hear about.
I SIT corrected, lizziee... :o ...And I'm the one who's always telling my Spanish buddies a bout the dangers of making sweeping generalizations. Though I still do feel like the the comment is applicable to a significant percentage of news agencies...you're right. I shouldn't lump you all together.

As for the rest of the myriad of posts on this issue...'now issue(s)' wink , I've enjoyed reading them immensely. Thanks for making me think, even while on vacation! :p
_________________________
Tony

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#62570 - 08/19/02 04:17 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1245
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
I didn't want to take issue with it, but I don't believe the news media "educates the world." They may keep them informed, but I'm afraid it's a reach to say their offers are akin to education.

In just about every nation, including Spain, which has left & right wing newspapers, facts are distorted to meet the publisher or political points of view, or to offer sensationalism to draw readership. If that's what journalism is really about, I certainly wouldn't want anyone to get the impression it's "educational."

Wolf (Who believes you can't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see.)

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#62571 - 08/19/02 04:40 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
Puna Offline
Executive Member

Registered: 07/07/00
Posts: 1674
Loc: Charlotte, NC. U.S.A.
Wolf, let me add one other point to your comments on education by the press - the pressure on the media for the advertising dollar is real and can not but help influence the tone of the media and the news coverage supplied.
I know none of us like to admit to it (freedom of the press, etc.) - but right along with the political points Wolf cited is the economic one.
Sad but true ....
_________________________
emotionally & mentally in Spain - physically in Charlotte
http://www.wendycrawfordwrites.com/

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#62572 - 08/19/02 09:09 PM Re: Another Bomb in Alicante?
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Not that sad though, in a capitalist democracy one most only join together with others to find the truth. The power of the purse, or the weakness of the status quo. Hmmmm, back to philosophy. Let's get back to some solutions......ready....set......BRAINSTORM!!!!!!

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