Wolf writes: But when you allow your new immigrants to build settlements in the 'buffer zones,' you have effectively annexed them as residential property, and you must make further incursions into other nations' territories for buffers to protect your new residential areas.
That brings up an interesting point: Do France's shocking recent election results indicate a rise in anti-semitism in Europe? It is widely known that LePen hates the North African people in France (even though most of them are French Citizens, by birth - many born in Algeria and/or Morocco when they were French territories). LePen is also known to be strongly anti-Semitic. He is one of those who dismisses the Holocaust as just a note in the history books. Could those French Presidential election results be interpreted to be part of an anti-Semitic backlash showing disapproval by European People of Israel's actions? How widespread is anti-semitism in Europe?

In the distant past I lived in a North African country with a substantial Jewish population. Most of the Professional people and craftsmen were Jews. The ran their own school system and lived apart from the Muslims (in a Mellah). They spoke Hebrew. When they got an opportunity to emigrate to Israel, they went, even though they were not allowed to take any more posessions than they could wear or carry. The economy of the country suffered greatly when the Jews departed. The Jews tended to be better educated and better businessmen than their Muslim counterparts. And I think the Muslims were/are jealous of Israel's (and the Jews) successes. That was in the 1950's and the Muslims still haven't caught up. Now the Jews have a military power; and it surpasses what the Muslims have. The Muslims don't like that!
As long as these fundamental things do not change, I don't see any hope for a lasting peace in the Middle East.

Eddie,

I agree. With each passing phase of action between the Israelis and Palestinians, the Israelis bite off another chunk of land, and end up turning them into settlements. They're like advance sentries, meant to take the shock of an initial attack. There's no doubt that these settlements spark even more problems between the two factions, and if any resolve is ever reached, it will be because the Israelis willingly give up these areas in Palestine as part of the agreement. I think the whole intent on the part of the Israelis for having these settlements is as a form of "punishment" to the Palestinians.

Your assessment of what things were like in North Africa fifty years ago tells us a lot about the history of the conflict, and says even more about the ideology surrounding the fundamentalist Muslim beliefs. The only part of the world that has developed over the last thousand years that they are willing to accept readily are those that deal with military applications, and convenience for the ruling class. For the mainstream Muslim, a life of poverty, and deprivation seems to be the norm.

Since the beginning of time, the best way for a ruling class to maintain a tight control over its subjects is to bathe them in ignorance, and feed them a constant diet of religious/political rhetoric.

The fundamentalist Muslims do it well, and even those clerics who are closer to the moderate line of thinking do the same thing, to insure that only a chosen few actually have the opportunity of becoming educated, and worldly. Even then, after so many years of brain-washing rhetoric, when they do receive education, the majority are still blindly loyal to a cause/faith, without questioning any of the ramifications it holds towards their obedience. Hence --- willing suicide candidates, like the group from 9-11, while the less educated become bombers like those we see in Palestine.

Over the years I've heard people say that the only way to combat this problem in the Muslim world is through education. That will never happen. The Muslim clerics will never allow it. You can't maintain blind obedience by the masses, if they are educated, and no matter how much technical help the West gives these nations, the clerics will insure it's turned against the West, and only the chosen few flourish for what is offered. It's the only way they can maintain their iron grip over their subjects.

Adding to our woes is the fact that the anti-Semetic feelings that are growing in Europe play right into the hands of the Muslim clerics. Their intent has always been to cause us to be divided, so we will eventually be able to be dealt with, one by one.

It puzzles me how there's so much anti-Semetic feelings in France. I guess the Jews are this decades "dogs to be kicked around." The last decade it was Americans in general. Apparently they decided we weren't being provoked enough, so switched to another target. Let's just hope these feelings don't spread throughout Europe. I don't want to hear anyone telling me how the Nazi "final solution" was justifiable. I'm afraid it would make me want to vomit. How soon people forget -- conveniently.

Wolf

For many years, I was sort of neutral, leaning to the Palestinian side of things. I think that the truth is that neither side has clean hands, and that neither side wants peace as most of us define peace.

I am always fascinated by the European approach to these kinds of debate and how quickly Americans are depicted as uncaring, uninformed and undereducated. I suppose the French are not at all affected by the euros they make from selling arms to middle eastern countries. Surely only crass American's allow their economic interests to affect their thinking. I hate to say it, but I think a substantial number of people in most countries are more concerned with their own well-being than obscure political conflicts in "remote" areas. In these debates, (whether over politics, energy consumption, art, whatever) Americans are accused of not taking the trouble to understand others; no one is ever concerned that others understand Americans. I would argue that for various historical reasons, we are more pragmatic.

So, for example, as I have come to understand that the Islamic world shunned the printing press for three hundred years, that the "education" being provided the children of Islamic fundamentalists is somewhat limited, and that the religion espoused by large numbers of these same fundamentalists promises great rewards for martyrdom, I have concluded that Israel is probably taking the only option that it has.

I also resent that in spite of our great ignorance as a country, we are expected to lead and then vilified for our "diplomatic failures" while other countries do very little. The EU is bigger, has more economic clout than the US, and more votes in the UN. I don't understand why the problem can't be solved there.

Maybe giving Arafat another Peace Prize would solve the problem!

ernie

I agree with ebetancourt's comments.

I live in Saudi Arabia and there is a lot about the Islamic way of life that most people around the world (Americas, Europe and Asia, etc.) would fraun upon. For starters, women are second class citizens, there is heavy sensorship of the press (has gotten better since the introduction of satelite TV) and the majority of the work force is composed of expatriates like myself. Most locals are lazy and religion comes before humanity here.

I also think that a lot of criticism about American's lack of knowledge about world affairs is only true to a certain extent. Many Americans are aware of world affairs. If we are so lapsed about world affairs, why is the rest world look for us to take the lead in all of the major crisis? Did any Arab nation sent a delegation to Israel to talk to both sides?

Someone commentted on the USA becoming more "cohesive" with the rest of the world. I believe the USA is very cohesive with the world and has been for quite some time. I'm sure our European members here were very glad that we were "cohesive" during WW I and WW II.

Islam may be the fastest growing religion in the world, but it also breeds more terrorists than any other religion in the world. As for the Israelis, they're not that inocent either if Jenin is any example of what they can do.

As for peace in the Middle East, I believe it can be achieved. Israel and Egypt have honored their peace agreement and I believe that peace here (I live here) can be achieved, provided the shooting stops, Israel returns the occupied lands and the rest of the world tells both parties to stop the nonsence.

If you need to know more about living in the Saudi Arabia, just ask. If you are up to it, meet me in Madrid between Agust 13th and the 20th and we can discuss it over copas and tapas.

Saludos a todos del oriente medio!

Hello, as someone said before, this is a topic that here in Spain we care a lot. I would like to do some points about some of the things that have been said before:
Saudi Arabia made a peace plan based on the devolution of all the territories (including the Golan Highs) and the recognition of the State of Israel and the stablishment of peace and normal relations by all the Arab nations. Sharon didn't want even to here of it. Only the USA can force Israel to negotiate as they give the money to support themselves. Israel and USA have never accepted that UN forces goes there although it have been proposed by Palestina since the 2nd Intifada began. Anyway, Israel never will accept an Arab nation as intermadiate negotiator as obviously they're not neutral.

Of course it can be achieved, and I hope it will be. It was almost achived with the plan Clinton. In an interview to Moratinos, he had the opinion that there wasn't enough political time to get an agreement because of the elections on Israel and the end of Clinton government. Anyway it was an agreement only with Palestinians, I think that Israel will never want to leave the Golan Highlands (this a personal feeling) .

About antisemitism in Europe, I don't think it's growing. I think the rise of LePen is motivated because of all the problems that have come with the high inmigration and the cultural crash, as there haven't been an integration of inmigrants in the French culture. Although there have been concentrations against Israel actuation, it doesn't mean antisemitism. Even in Israel there have been protest against it. In Spain, although the Catolic church has still a big influence we are a non religious country and we don't care about the religious believes of anyone.

I won't be here in august to discuss about Saudi Arabia, altohugh I would like to know more things, the things I have heard about them are not good, but as they're a friend country isn't a good thing to talk about them. Anyway, I think they're very different from the countries of North Africa were I have been.

About the UN, Israel have several resolutions forcing them to leave all the occupied territories, but they don't do it and nothing happens so the Arab nations have the feeling than the UN only works when we want, and it loose the moral value it could have.

About terrorism, Israel couldn't avoid the killing of Isaac Rabin, (who was one of the persons who most looked for the peace), and ask Arafat to control terrorism. I know Arafat could make more, but I think that Sharon acts gives more reasons to people for inmolating themselves, if you leave in poverty, with no future, no job, your house destroyed, some friends and family killed ....In Spain we are trying to fight terrorism with democratic arms and I think we will win. A terrorist in my opinion must be judge to demostrate he's guilty.

Well, it's enough by now, sorry for writing so much.

I agree with you MM, this isn't really about Spain. Maybe, only, that good ol' Bin Laden said that he "dreams of the day the Arab horses would be riding through the Andalucian plains to take back Spain."

I'm sorry but I don't really agree with the idea of not being able to discuss live matters in a civilized way.

It is an interesting topic for both americans, spaniards, and the rest of the people who visit this board (swedish, australians, british, ...).

What kind of stimolous will we spaniards have if this is only about Spain? Think of it, my country is beautiful and wonderful, but what I search here is also to meet other forgein cultures and people, knowing their customes and their points of view. I don't really see nothing wrong with that...

Fernando

Toddy, Fernando,

MadridMan hasn't limited our discussion in this thread. He just indicated he'd like to see us channel future posts on the board to Spain, not start new ones that aren't related to Spain and/or Madrid.

What Toddy said is interesting. The fact that bin Laden himself alluded to the past, when Muslims/Arabs controlled the southern regions of Spain. Eventually the Muslim claims will include the two Spanish colonies in Morocco, and could spread to include the southern half of Spain. Based on the practices fundamentalist Muslims believe in, they seem to believe they "own" any land they decide to inhabit. If you don't believe this, look at the domino effect that has taken place in lands that they slowly migrated into during the last forty to fifty years. Either through political means, or by force, and terrorism, they have taken over the governments, and expelled, or killed anyone who disagrees with them.

Spain's belief that they have this wonderful working relationship with nations like Libya is idealistic. If the Spanish government crosses one Muslim nation, they'll have all of the militant states to deal with. What happens then? Would world opinion support Spain, even though she may have undermined the right of Israelis for autonomy? If I was the average Spaniard, these issues would be paramount in my mind. I'd begin to wonder just how viable my country's political position really is.

Wolf (Posing a question worth pondering. You can't switch positions only after they affect you personally.)

Wolf, I was not putting in question MM ability of limit the thematic or even his right to sugest a certain general motivation of the threads. I was just defending that I think it is more interesting indead to be able to discuss actual matters, at least in one of the boards. In fact, I think that MM has done a great job moderating the board...

Some days ago I heard something quite interesting on how the americans (the average) generally form their own opinions. An analist sayed that the average american usually deal with controversial matters in terms of good and bad guys. I don't fully agree with him because what I have seen here makes me think just the oposite. However, when I see your posts this sentence come to my mind. Why the terrorism (yes, that is the word) that Israel makes is more appealing for you than the palestinian one?

In this situation there are not good boys or bad boys. Arafat and the palestinians loose all credit and their right in the same moment they use religion as an excuse and terrorism as a way to deal with problems. And Sharon, a terrorist himself (3000 persons death in three refugee camps, including children, and the dissapearing of the corpses) is doing his best to seed the terror on palestinians, and what is worse: using the machinery of a democratic state (thus I call it state's terrorism, the same we had to stand with the GAL and ETA).

Spaniards are not afraid of an arab ocupation as you may think. What you will probably don't know is that we have excelent relationships with most arab (arab, do not confuse with muslim) countries. We also had/have an excelent relationship with Israel (of which the best exponent is the sefardi community).

It is said that we had the best intelligence network in the arab countries, and it is guessed that our inteligence services were trained by the Mossad (Israel's IS). Overall our relationships with the Magreb countries is fairly good (as well as with Europe, with South and Central America, and even with asiatic countries).

That doesn't keep lybians and moroccians to say from time to time that they would want to bomb Spain, take Ceuta, Melilla or Canarias, or convert Spain in a muslim caliphate once again. Is that a serious possibility? I don't think so. They are probably diplomatic tools, or just bravadas.

One anechdote: Peres was in Valencia the last week. To show how evil the european countries are, and how against Israel we are, he showed to the press a magazine called "El Jueves", in which Sharon was picted as a pig, and titled "Sharon: Ese pedazo de animal" (Sharon: That piece of animal). That same magazine makes constant jokes and caricatures over all public persons (as showing Aznar as a prostitute, or the King in a less than friendly way). The opinion of the people? This Peres must be incredibly stupid to give credit to such a document... (though Peres is nothing but stupid...).

Fernando

The link

El Jueves

Of course they have thanked the free publicity Peres gave to them...

Fernando