Fernando,

First of all I should say that I agree with you 100% about the actions of the state of Israel. While I do find their actions to be to be appalling and would say they can rightfully be characterized as terrorizing the Palestinian community, I would caution against using words like "nazi" to describe the Jewish state. Such strong characterizations tend deflect attention from the valid claims you made by stirring up emotion. It is all too common to hear pro-Israeli thinkers invoke the jewish holocaust as some sort of justification for Israel's current actions. I don't think it serves our cause to be invoking the same images while trying to make a point.

* Just to clarify a statistic you mentioned, the UNRWA (a UN agency responsible for the Palestinian refugees) placed the number of Palestinian refugees at 3.17 million as of June 1995

B.K.

Palestine was a British protectorate, and a real thorn in the side for the Brits who were only too happy to let it go in 1948 when, as Fernando writes: Does anyone remember Haganah? That was the Zionist terrorist organization like (Palestinian) Hamas. Sharon is a hard line Israeli conservative and a (former?) terrorist. Nor was its subsequent enlargement as ethnic Jews swarmed to the new Jewish homeland from North African countries where they had a significant presence such as Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco and from central and eastern Europe (and Russia) and even from the U.S. The new immigrants spilled over the Israeli borders, building settlements in Palestinian territory without regard to the fact they were occupying land belonging to someone else. But that's OK! The Israeli Army would protect them and their newly claimed territory. IMHO that situation has been allowed to get totally out of control.

There's only so much territory: The Palestinians are competing with (often newly arrived) Israeli immigrants for land they used to call their own.
I don't know if or how this problem will ever be resolved.

In the meantime, this morning's newspapers report waves of Anti-semitism being revived in Europe. It could get very ugly!

Bocata: You are right. My statement is not based on nothing objective, and I feel ashamed, because I know the term "nazi" can be a very sensitive one abroad. Sorry.

My point was that the Israel government is doing lots of things that clearly violates Human Rights, and which are unthinkable for me in a democratic country.

Eddie, thanks for clarifying.

Again, sorry if I have exceeded with my argumentation. It was inapropiate.

Fernando

Neither side is without blame for the state of war that exists. You cannot blame the US for supporting Israel unless you blame the arab nations who support the Palestinians at the same time. If the US withdrew their support, it would only increase the support that the Palestinians get, and lead to genocide.

Partition was determined in 1947, by UN resolution, and saying that the UK was instrumental in it is wrong. In fact the UK abstained from voting on the issue. The only nations that voted against partition were those that were basically muslim.

The Israelis accepted the terms of partition but the Palestinians and the rest of their Arab support refused to accept it then, and now. They lay claim to the entire area, and will not accept the terms of partition. They want the Israelis out of what is known as Israel, or will commit genocide if the Israelis are not given support.

By offering a point of view favorable to either side, we give them ammunition through world opinion that what they are doing is right. They both have to be convinced they are wrong.

Whether its children who end up killed by Israeli soldiers, or children killed in a pizza parlor by a suicide bomber, it makes no difference. Neither incident should happen. You cannot mention one side of this issue without mentioning the other.

It's time we all took a stand against both sides, not get involved in rationalization as to why we think one side or the other is within their rights.

Wolf

Wolf writes: If you read what I wrote as stating that the UK was instrumental in the partition of Palestine, go back and re-read my post. That's not what I wrote at all.
Of course! Why wouldn't the Zionists (Israel was not yet a State) accept the 'something for nothing' deal they were getting? And why would any Palestinian (by birth or adoption) agree to give up part of his/her homeland and surrender it to those foreigners (among them Zionists terrorists)? How would you feel if a foreign power started splitting up your property and giving it to some outsiders?

Israel continues an aggresive expansionary policy displacing people with birthright to lands and pushing them into refugee camps. You state that Israel accepted the terms of the partition. How much more territory have they annexed since that original partition? Are the Israeli settlements on the west bank within the boundaries set by that U.N. Resolution? How about the boundaries before the (7-day) 1967 war?

I regret to say that it bears some similarity to how the U.S. west was 'won:' taking military action against and killing those Native Americans who resisted; and relocating civilized tribes to to 'Indian Reservations' or what was then considered worthless land called 'Indian Territory.' The 'red man's revenge:' Creek County, Oklahoma sits on a pool of light, sweet crude oil - all the property of the Creek Nation.

Wolf, you are right when you say neither part is without blame.

In which I don't agree is to make comparisons: Terrorists are terrorists, and Israel is a democracy. While terrorists don't mind who the victims are, a democracy should care for those who are inocent. Otherwise US could have harrased Kabul with a nuclear bomb disregarding the afghans who were inocent...

Israelis keep on saying they have a historic right to live there. This is really absurd, they lived there thousands of years ago, and the Palestinians have been living there for hundreds of years. Israel has the right to exist as a country, but respecting the right of others. Don't you think?

At the end what is the worst is that this conflict has lasted 50 years, and we will probably don't see its end What a shame for us all.

Fernando

Fernando wrote:

Not to become too entwined in the political debate, frankly I think Fernando is right here. The Israeli argument that they have an historic right to live there is ridiculous. If that were a valid argument, an Italian could say that England is properly an Italian possession...after all, it was an colony of Rome two thousand years ago.

Eddie,

Nobody said you had written anything in reference to the UK. My response was generic, based on all the responses.

But since it's been brought up, that the Israelis are the bad guys in this whole thing, let's go back in time, and determine how we got to where we are today.

The UN partitioned the area of Palestine to create a Jewish state. Accept it. They have a right to it whether you like it or not. In the fifty five years since then, the Arabs/Muslims have attacked Israel five times in acts of all out war and lost all five of them because Israel was fighting a defensive war. Following the defeat of the Arab armies, the Israelis have retaliated. In the process, they have established holds on lands surrounding the Israeli state, to use them as a buffer, to prevent further attacks. Like it or not, nations do that. This isn't some Israeli conspiracy, it's a fact of life.

Between the five wars, Muslim extremists have done all they can to provoke Israel. The constant stream of suicide bombers and suicide squads that attack schools and villages is well known. You can't forget them. They have happened, and continue to happen. Their targets? The children of Israel, to insure that the Israelis are constantly incensed by the attacks.

We can't sit back and accept this in the name of the Israelis, and tell them they aren't being "cooperative" when it comes to peace negotiations. If the Palestinian authority can't do anything to stop these events from happening, they obviously don't represent a viable force that can sit at any table to negotiate a lasting peace.

For centuries the Jews have been the target of anti-semetic interests. Even today, in France, anti-semitism runs rampant. The Holocaust, of WWII led to the death of 40% of all European Jews at the hands of the Nazis, and nobody wants to admit that they knew it was happening. We ask the Jews to accept this, as if it never happened, or was nothing more than "an unfortunate incident." We ask them to accept that six million Jews died, in an attempt at genocide.

Then we go so far as to tell them they are wrong to invade cities in Palestine, where there are hotbeds of fanantics whose intent is to destroy Israel through terrorism. We tell them they should back off, and wait for a peace process to take place, when it never comes, and the rampant attacks of bombers continues.

In other words, we ask them to continue dying, when nobody really gives a damn if any peace accords work, and the Palestinians admit that there will never be peace until the last Jew is either dead, or out of Israel.

I don't know what you'd do, but I know I'd fight just as damned hard to protect my nation, my people, and my life, as the Jews do.

Is this a statement supporting the Jews? No. It simply states facts. Since we're into talking about how the Jews have "invaded" Palestine, let's consider the facts. The Jews have been under siege since partition. Not only have they been under siege, but the Muslims, and Palestinians have said that they will not quit until the last Jew is dead.

I find it difficult to tell an Israeli that those words are from someone who really wants to talk about a lasting peace.

Let's remember. There are two sides to this issue, and if we support either side, we only add fuel to their cause to continue this war. We'd be better off demanding that both sides go to the table with the intent of a lasting peace. That must include withdrawal from Palestinian territory, and a guarantee from the Palestinians that they will stop the suicide bombings. Not just rhetoric that says they will, then turn their back, since they fear these militants more than they do the Israelis.

Wolf (Who doesn't support either side, but does support partition.)

We tell Israel they are wrong when they refuse medical attention to the wounded and show disregard for noncombantants, both things that could amount to war crimes.

Roe,

I couldn't agree more. It is a war crime. But isn't it also a war crime to harbor and aid people who use brain washing techniques to create suicide bombers, who go into Israeli cities, with the full intent of blowing themselves up to kill civilians? Of course that's not a justification for what's done, it's just the stark reality that there are very few nations, or people in the world, who play according to "the rules," when they consider themselves at war. Of course both sides use the lack of concern shown by the other, as a justification for their own actions, and use it as a political weapon for world opinion.

It's this constant flow of pro-Palestinian, anti-Jewish, and pro-Israeli, and anti-Palestinian rhetoric that we end up hearing, and using to formulate our opinions.

That means, by and large, we hear the biased opinions of the newspapers, television reports, and news service reports which sway us. Rest assured, the reports by al-Jazeer are tainted by Arab/Muslim opinion, and news services that lean towards the Israeli point of view are tainted in their favor. Sorting out the truth becomes difficult at best.

"If" the US stopped supporting Israel, do you believe the attacks against US and European interests would stop? Not a chance. To the fundamentalists who believe there is no other route than being a fundamentalist Muslim, everything about us is against their very belief. Their attacks will never stop.

Wolf