Hi.

I don't know if somebody will want to give his opinion of the most controversial and important topic of nowadays: Israel and Palestine.

I've found a new in the N.Y. times today that shows that Europeans think differently than americans: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/19/international/middleeast/19SURV.html

I read spanis newspapers and the nytimes online and yesterday, at last, on the TV news appeared the images of Jenin or better said ... the ruins of Jenin. It seemed that a meteorite had hit the city and the 90% of the houses had been brought down. But the U.S. is going to veto a resolution of the United Nations for looking if it was a massacre against the civils of Palestine. Why?.

My question is, these images are showed on the american news on tv?. Still no ambulances are allowed to come in in Jenin, and the reporters have been allowed just yesterday. Why?. Why cannot the reporters come into those cities?. Sure because there is something to hide. Those are the main questions that I think the european people is asking.

This is something that I've cut from the nytimes:
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On the Jenin raids, Annan told reporters he would approve an investigation but his first priority was to help the living. He called on Israel to allow humanitarian workers full access to the devastated refugee camp, describing the destruction as ''horrific.''

U.N. officials visiting the camp found ``people digging out corpses from the rubble with bare hands,'' Annan said.

``Meanwhile no major emergency rescue operation has been allowed to begin. The destruction is massive and the impact on the civilian population is devastating,'' he said.
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Bye.

I welcome discussion on this topic as it is an important issue in the world. However, we really should limit our threads (at least new, starting threads) to those related to Spain. Thanks.

hombre_qizon,

To answer your question, we are seeing the same images of the massive destruction inflicted by the Israeli army in Jenin, but I think you are right about the difference in mainstream opinion on the issue. It is important to note that often times media outlets in the U.S. portray a substantially different world view than do other international media outlets. We get the same images, but often with different commentary.

For example some newspapers and television stations are very careful in the way they word refrences to Israel and Palestine. The Occupied West Bank and Gaza become "disputed West Bank and Gaza", Jewish settlements on occupied land become "jewish neighborhoods", Palestinian children are always killed in "crossfire" (thus deflecting the blame from the Israeli army).

You ask why the U.S. could veto resolutions on basic Human Rights issues and abuses? The reasons behind my country's blind support for Israel are complicated and could foster a debate for months, but to get one of the main reasons, you can visit their website at http://www.aipac.org/ - its the Pro-Israeli lobby in the U.S. and they carry a lot of weight. The other main reason that- I hope is changing- is simply that the majority of Americans are apathetic, they don't know anything about what is going on, so they sit back and idly believe what they are told by the U.S. media. More of us here in the U.S. are seeking out independant and international news and making our own decisions, so hope is not all lost. There are some of us as outraged as the Europeans are at the amount of suffering and destruction that the 34 year old Israeli occupation has inflicted on the Palestinian people, and who are equally outraged at the Palestinian extremists that show no reverence for Israeli civilians' life.

B.K.

Contrary to what MM posts. I think that this is a good topic to discuss and think it has a lot to do with Spain. For any American planning on traveling to Spain (or Europe for that matter), it is good that s/he be aware of other points of views and attitudes towards this very very unfortunate and sad situation in the Middle East. This is a topic that my husband and I, as well as other Spanish friends, discuss frequently... especially as it relates to the American attitude towards the "peace process".

It has been mentioned before in this forum that Spaniards are generally very well read and also very up to date on current affairs. I would go so far as to say that the average Spaniard has a better idea of what is happening with the US politics (and in the world) than the average American. This parallels directly with what Bocata King stated:

Anyone who really wants to understand the Spanish (or any foreign) culture should make the effort to understand that culture´s political points of view.

Prior to moving to Spain, I worked for an independent public television station that worked hard to bring an international view of the world and a greater understanding of world politics to the Philadelphia region. The station broadcast newscasts and programming from Korea, India, France2 (Le Journal), The BBC, Deutsche Welle, Italy, Armenia, Poland and Greece just to name a few. I consider myself lucky to have been exposed to a wide variety of news programming and always appreciated an "international" or "different" perspective, and wish that others can/could also appreciate such mind/eye opening exposure. It really helps keep balance and give the much needed reality check.

I just had to express my opinion on the posting of this topic. It is one that is in the news here daily in Spain and a very big part of the Spanish mindset, as clearly indicated by the nationality of the poster of the original message...a Spaniard.

Saludos!

I, too, feel the need to add a couple of comments. Like Chica, I worked for may years in the news business (television and radio) and concur in that almost all of the US media presents a cautious and, I feel, biased view of international news. No excuse for it - but the reason(s) for it are:
1. What sells/generates viewers/listeners/readers
2. Who advertises-those guys keep the media alive
3. Media Ownership-this effects editorial presentation and content - no matter what the ideal is
4. Demographics for specific media - the local intepretation of the news is slanted for mid-America far differently than it is for California or NY.

I concur wholeheartedly in that Americans, in general, are apathetic and have an extrodinarily poor understand of, or background in, world affairs. I only wish I knew how (and had the authority) to change this. I agree with Bocata King's statement that more and more Americans are utilizing both independent and foreign news services for a more educated understanding of international situations - not only the present Israel and Palestine conflict.

As BK stated - certain lobbies in the US have far too much influence over the government - goes back to $$$$$ - and this plays a huge role in how government decisions are made.

I can only agree with all the previous comments that the US needs - urgently - to learn to view, act, and think as a cohesive part of the world. It is long overdue that we become a world player in the true sense and on a parity with all other players/countries. No more - no less. I think the EU is setting an example that I can only hope the US follows.

NEWFLASH :The problems in the Middle East will never be solved completely. During all of our lives we have and shall see turmoil in the Middle East. How many special envoys have been sent to difuse the situation over the years? Every US president, every Pope, and every significant Europen enity has dispatched diplomats to bring peace to the region. The tumult in Isreal/Palenstine is not a new occurence, but only one episode in a neverending culebrón .

I am sorry to rain on everyone´s´parade , but we need to properly asses culpability for the lastest developments. There responsiblity is shared by Isreal and the Palenstinian. Sharon has been commeted himself to destroy organized Palestian resistance without regard to the lives of innocents, and Arafat has cunningly used the depraved madness of Sharon as a great tool in the constant international public realtions battle, which is more important in the long run than any street skirmish in Hebron or Jeruselum. Sharon has cleary not only been Arafat´s fiercest foe, but ultimately his most powerful weapon.

The United States sadly has aided Isreal enormously over the last 50 years. Of course, following the holucost and the countless numbers of dislocated Jews in Europe, the US and the UK decided partioning Palestine in order to create a "Jewish Homeland" was an adecuate manner to deal with the large numbers of refugees. Unfortunately, this externally enginered state has not been able to be entirely selfsufficient
and without billions of dollars of aid would have perished years ago. The US put itself in a precarios postion 50 years ago, it had hoped to create a loyal friend in this geopolitcally important region as a counterpoint to the growing spread of international communism, while at the same time relocate many victims of Nazism back to their religous homeland. The dreams of both the US and the Zionist have not always been the same.

The coverage of the current situation here in Spain is far more balanced, than is widely dispered in the US for many of the reasons already posted. But, the role of the US in the current mess needs to be developed some what. Although, frequently worthy of critiscim the US actions in the recent events should be viewed as a important first step toward a more evenhanded aproach to the Near East. George Bush has publicly called for the Isreali troops to retreat without delay, in stark oposition to the Isreali government stance. We cannot fully understand this development, if we do not realize that the US does not normaly critize Isreali internal affairs in the open. When the US has had differneces with Isreal it has vented its disaproval through diplomatic channels not CNN. It is politcally quite dangerous to condem Isreal in the US, no politician wants to face the rage of the Isreali lobby who can easily finance enough commercials and mailings that in a close election can determine the outcome.

MadridMan, I know this thread does not deal directly deal with Spain, but as long as the participants refrain from bomb throwing on this heated and conterversial topic, I think it should be allowed. By the way I am not anti-Isreali nor pro-Arab, I support an Isreali state within much smaller paramters than the state that Sharon and his cronies support.

I have posted this same message in another thread, but I feel this is the adequate one to post it, so I will copy it here to state my opinion

--------------------------------

Fernando rises a hand, may I?

I may be wrong, but I think here the blame is focused on Israel and Sharon (80%) and the government of the USA (20%). Even jews and israelians (is that the word?) are not seen specificly as the ones who have the responsability of these issue, so americans (american citizens) are not the targets of our upset. Ask americans who live here... As far as I know it has not been any single riot against Israel.

If I were asked: Sharon is responsible for this state's terrorism, and he is a terrorist himself. Israel has the right to defend itself from the terrorism commited by the palestinians (and Arafat, himself a terrorist, is in part responsible for this), but has no right to harrass civilians, cities, historical monuments and sacred places as they are doing. The US government is responsible of letting this situation to go that far, they should have stopped Sharon in time.

Personally, I the arab countries attack Israel, I would not want my country to intervene in that war. Israel has helped us in the past, and is helping us yet, it was considered a friendly country. Now Sharon has destroyed that relationship in two months. He has insulted Solana (representative of the European Union) and our president, he has said (literally) "I will never meet again with the Europe representative since Europe is supporting terrorism". If it was for me I would inmediately have called the 15 ambassadors of the european countries from Israel, cut all relations and applied comercial penalties (althought for them it would be nothing). Those statements should not be tolerated anyway.

I now this is a controversial issue, I hope I'm not missunderstood...

Fernando

Shawn, well said, great post! Clap, clap, clap!!!

hey everybody

im with shawn too!the problem will never end in the middle east.its been their ever since the jews set foot on israel.you say youre not anti-israel,or pro arab,well me too.but i think the palestians have ALWAYS started the problems and the israelis just recently and rightfully actually started to sick and tired of the bull**** and started to "fight back" by doing the same things the war like palestians have always done,which is bomb thier asses.anyways look how many times the israeli presidents shook thier filthy hands(for example yasser arafat)of these perfect hyprocites.hey but did the constant 5 or so times a year shakehand do anything.NO i think not.would anybody against my comment tell me any virtue there may be on the palestian side.poor israel look how there surround by enemys.what i mean is that there surround on 3and a half sides by palestian enemy countrys who hate there guts (for i dont know what reason) and little rest of the sides faces the beautiful mediterrian(cradle of civilization)which extend all the way to the strait of gibralter,and well our great spain too.

I'm sorry fmiketheman but I don't agree with you.

Following the WW2 the allies (mainly the US and UK, the metropoli of Palestina, which was a british colony) decided that the jews, who had suffered the Holocaust, had the right to have their own country (with which I agree). Why didn't the jews accepted offers like the one of the government of Argentina to found their own country in their territory? I don't know (though someone has stated that the US wanted a counterbalance in the region by having an allied power). Jews installed themselves in Palestina and kicked the existing population using terrorism. There are now 5 million palestinian civilian refugees in Syria, Libano, and Jordania due to this process.

Ok, we can't really blame current countries for the errors of the past. The founding of the Israeli state was not clean. Let's accept the fact that it is unthinkable to move the Israeli state to another region. Why not letting the native population to have their own country near to it? The UN, Rusia, Europe and USA have stated several times that this would be the solution: Having two countries: Israel for the jews, and Palestina for the native population (which are arabs of varied religions, including ortodoxes, catholics, moslems,...). What Israel have said? Yes! but... then they continue to make settlements and new villages in the internationally reckoned palestinian territory.

The two main actors:
Ariel Sharon is responsible for the killing of hundreds of civilians (even children) in two refugee's camps. Now he is commiting state's terrorism by attacking civilian settlements with military power, with the excuse of being hunting terrorists (which he could pursue with the police, as in any democracy). He has ordered the destruction of the Jenin camp. Yes, there were terrorists there, does that give him the right to destroy commerces, blocks of residential buildings and son on? Absolutely no!

Yasser Arafat was a terrorist until the Palestinian Government was publicly formed. Then he started to hunt palestinian terrorists (as the ones of the Yihad) but he was probably supporting them in the background. When Sharon ordered the occupation of the palestinian towns he started to order terrorist attacks to his subordinates.

What the USA made in Afghanistan was attacking the terrorists, always trying to avoid civilian killings, what Israel is doing is state's terrorism, because their objective is to humble the palestinians, and cause civilian casualties. That makes the difference for me between a democratic country who is rightfully defending itselft and a terrorist and nazi one (do you know they are marking palestinians as the nazis did with the jews?) who is trying to destroy a whole civilization.

Which would be the solution? Stop the killings (both sides) and recognize each other borders... it is that simple, if they not want history will put them in the right place: like the animals which are demonstrating all the world they are.

Fernando

Fernando,

First of all I should say that I agree with you 100% about the actions of the state of Israel. While I do find their actions to be to be appalling and would say they can rightfully be characterized as terrorizing the Palestinian community, I would caution against using words like "nazi" to describe the Jewish state. Such strong characterizations tend deflect attention from the valid claims you made by stirring up emotion. It is all too common to hear pro-Israeli thinkers invoke the jewish holocaust as some sort of justification for Israel's current actions. I don't think it serves our cause to be invoking the same images while trying to make a point.

* Just to clarify a statistic you mentioned, the UNRWA (a UN agency responsible for the Palestinian refugees) placed the number of Palestinian refugees at 3.17 million as of June 1995

B.K.

Palestine was a British protectorate, and a real thorn in the side for the Brits who were only too happy to let it go in 1948 when, as Fernando writes: Does anyone remember Haganah? That was the Zionist terrorist organization like (Palestinian) Hamas. Sharon is a hard line Israeli conservative and a (former?) terrorist. Nor was its subsequent enlargement as ethnic Jews swarmed to the new Jewish homeland from North African countries where they had a significant presence such as Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco and from central and eastern Europe (and Russia) and even from the U.S. The new immigrants spilled over the Israeli borders, building settlements in Palestinian territory without regard to the fact they were occupying land belonging to someone else. But that's OK! The Israeli Army would protect them and their newly claimed territory. IMHO that situation has been allowed to get totally out of control.

There's only so much territory: The Palestinians are competing with (often newly arrived) Israeli immigrants for land they used to call their own.
I don't know if or how this problem will ever be resolved.

In the meantime, this morning's newspapers report waves of Anti-semitism being revived in Europe. It could get very ugly!

Bocata: You are right. My statement is not based on nothing objective, and I feel ashamed, because I know the term "nazi" can be a very sensitive one abroad. Sorry.

My point was that the Israel government is doing lots of things that clearly violates Human Rights, and which are unthinkable for me in a democratic country.

Eddie, thanks for clarifying.

Again, sorry if I have exceeded with my argumentation. It was inapropiate.

Fernando

Neither side is without blame for the state of war that exists. You cannot blame the US for supporting Israel unless you blame the arab nations who support the Palestinians at the same time. If the US withdrew their support, it would only increase the support that the Palestinians get, and lead to genocide.

Partition was determined in 1947, by UN resolution, and saying that the UK was instrumental in it is wrong. In fact the UK abstained from voting on the issue. The only nations that voted against partition were those that were basically muslim.

The Israelis accepted the terms of partition but the Palestinians and the rest of their Arab support refused to accept it then, and now. They lay claim to the entire area, and will not accept the terms of partition. They want the Israelis out of what is known as Israel, or will commit genocide if the Israelis are not given support.

By offering a point of view favorable to either side, we give them ammunition through world opinion that what they are doing is right. They both have to be convinced they are wrong.

Whether its children who end up killed by Israeli soldiers, or children killed in a pizza parlor by a suicide bomber, it makes no difference. Neither incident should happen. You cannot mention one side of this issue without mentioning the other.

It's time we all took a stand against both sides, not get involved in rationalization as to why we think one side or the other is within their rights.

Wolf

Wolf writes: If you read what I wrote as stating that the UK was instrumental in the partition of Palestine, go back and re-read my post. That's not what I wrote at all.
Of course! Why wouldn't the Zionists (Israel was not yet a State) accept the 'something for nothing' deal they were getting? And why would any Palestinian (by birth or adoption) agree to give up part of his/her homeland and surrender it to those foreigners (among them Zionists terrorists)? How would you feel if a foreign power started splitting up your property and giving it to some outsiders?

Israel continues an aggresive expansionary policy displacing people with birthright to lands and pushing them into refugee camps. You state that Israel accepted the terms of the partition. How much more territory have they annexed since that original partition? Are the Israeli settlements on the west bank within the boundaries set by that U.N. Resolution? How about the boundaries before the (7-day) 1967 war?

I regret to say that it bears some similarity to how the U.S. west was 'won:' taking military action against and killing those Native Americans who resisted; and relocating civilized tribes to to 'Indian Reservations' or what was then considered worthless land called 'Indian Territory.' The 'red man's revenge:' Creek County, Oklahoma sits on a pool of light, sweet crude oil - all the property of the Creek Nation.

Wolf, you are right when you say neither part is without blame.

In which I don't agree is to make comparisons: Terrorists are terrorists, and Israel is a democracy. While terrorists don't mind who the victims are, a democracy should care for those who are inocent. Otherwise US could have harrased Kabul with a nuclear bomb disregarding the afghans who were inocent...

Israelis keep on saying they have a historic right to live there. This is really absurd, they lived there thousands of years ago, and the Palestinians have been living there for hundreds of years. Israel has the right to exist as a country, but respecting the right of others. Don't you think?

At the end what is the worst is that this conflict has lasted 50 years, and we will probably don't see its end What a shame for us all.

Fernando

Fernando wrote:

Not to become too entwined in the political debate, frankly I think Fernando is right here. The Israeli argument that they have an historic right to live there is ridiculous. If that were a valid argument, an Italian could say that England is properly an Italian possession...after all, it was an colony of Rome two thousand years ago.

Eddie,

Nobody said you had written anything in reference to the UK. My response was generic, based on all the responses.

But since it's been brought up, that the Israelis are the bad guys in this whole thing, let's go back in time, and determine how we got to where we are today.

The UN partitioned the area of Palestine to create a Jewish state. Accept it. They have a right to it whether you like it or not. In the fifty five years since then, the Arabs/Muslims have attacked Israel five times in acts of all out war and lost all five of them because Israel was fighting a defensive war. Following the defeat of the Arab armies, the Israelis have retaliated. In the process, they have established holds on lands surrounding the Israeli state, to use them as a buffer, to prevent further attacks. Like it or not, nations do that. This isn't some Israeli conspiracy, it's a fact of life.

Between the five wars, Muslim extremists have done all they can to provoke Israel. The constant stream of suicide bombers and suicide squads that attack schools and villages is well known. You can't forget them. They have happened, and continue to happen. Their targets? The children of Israel, to insure that the Israelis are constantly incensed by the attacks.

We can't sit back and accept this in the name of the Israelis, and tell them they aren't being "cooperative" when it comes to peace negotiations. If the Palestinian authority can't do anything to stop these events from happening, they obviously don't represent a viable force that can sit at any table to negotiate a lasting peace.

For centuries the Jews have been the target of anti-semetic interests. Even today, in France, anti-semitism runs rampant. The Holocaust, of WWII led to the death of 40% of all European Jews at the hands of the Nazis, and nobody wants to admit that they knew it was happening. We ask the Jews to accept this, as if it never happened, or was nothing more than "an unfortunate incident." We ask them to accept that six million Jews died, in an attempt at genocide.

Then we go so far as to tell them they are wrong to invade cities in Palestine, where there are hotbeds of fanantics whose intent is to destroy Israel through terrorism. We tell them they should back off, and wait for a peace process to take place, when it never comes, and the rampant attacks of bombers continues.

In other words, we ask them to continue dying, when nobody really gives a damn if any peace accords work, and the Palestinians admit that there will never be peace until the last Jew is either dead, or out of Israel.

I don't know what you'd do, but I know I'd fight just as damned hard to protect my nation, my people, and my life, as the Jews do.

Is this a statement supporting the Jews? No. It simply states facts. Since we're into talking about how the Jews have "invaded" Palestine, let's consider the facts. The Jews have been under siege since partition. Not only have they been under siege, but the Muslims, and Palestinians have said that they will not quit until the last Jew is dead.

I find it difficult to tell an Israeli that those words are from someone who really wants to talk about a lasting peace.

Let's remember. There are two sides to this issue, and if we support either side, we only add fuel to their cause to continue this war. We'd be better off demanding that both sides go to the table with the intent of a lasting peace. That must include withdrawal from Palestinian territory, and a guarantee from the Palestinians that they will stop the suicide bombings. Not just rhetoric that says they will, then turn their back, since they fear these militants more than they do the Israelis.

Wolf (Who doesn't support either side, but does support partition.)

We tell Israel they are wrong when they refuse medical attention to the wounded and show disregard for noncombantants, both things that could amount to war crimes.

Roe,

I couldn't agree more. It is a war crime. But isn't it also a war crime to harbor and aid people who use brain washing techniques to create suicide bombers, who go into Israeli cities, with the full intent of blowing themselves up to kill civilians? Of course that's not a justification for what's done, it's just the stark reality that there are very few nations, or people in the world, who play according to "the rules," when they consider themselves at war. Of course both sides use the lack of concern shown by the other, as a justification for their own actions, and use it as a political weapon for world opinion.

It's this constant flow of pro-Palestinian, anti-Jewish, and pro-Israeli, and anti-Palestinian rhetoric that we end up hearing, and using to formulate our opinions.

That means, by and large, we hear the biased opinions of the newspapers, television reports, and news service reports which sway us. Rest assured, the reports by al-Jazeer are tainted by Arab/Muslim opinion, and news services that lean towards the Israeli point of view are tainted in their favor. Sorting out the truth becomes difficult at best.

"If" the US stopped supporting Israel, do you believe the attacks against US and European interests would stop? Not a chance. To the fundamentalists who believe there is no other route than being a fundamentalist Muslim, everything about us is against their very belief. Their attacks will never stop.

Wolf

Wolf writes: But when you allow your new immigrants to build settlements in the 'buffer zones,' you have effectively annexed them as residential property, and you must make further incursions into other nations' territories for buffers to protect your new residential areas.
That brings up an interesting point: Do France's shocking recent election results indicate a rise in anti-semitism in Europe? It is widely known that LePen hates the North African people in France (even though most of them are French Citizens, by birth - many born in Algeria and/or Morocco when they were French territories). LePen is also known to be strongly anti-Semitic. He is one of those who dismisses the Holocaust as just a note in the history books. Could those French Presidential election results be interpreted to be part of an anti-Semitic backlash showing disapproval by European People of Israel's actions? How widespread is anti-semitism in Europe?

In the distant past I lived in a North African country with a substantial Jewish population. Most of the Professional people and craftsmen were Jews. The ran their own school system and lived apart from the Muslims (in a Mellah). They spoke Hebrew. When they got an opportunity to emigrate to Israel, they went, even though they were not allowed to take any more posessions than they could wear or carry. The economy of the country suffered greatly when the Jews departed. The Jews tended to be better educated and better businessmen than their Muslim counterparts. And I think the Muslims were/are jealous of Israel's (and the Jews) successes. That was in the 1950's and the Muslims still haven't caught up. Now the Jews have a military power; and it surpasses what the Muslims have. The Muslims don't like that!
As long as these fundamental things do not change, I don't see any hope for a lasting peace in the Middle East.

Eddie,

I agree. With each passing phase of action between the Israelis and Palestinians, the Israelis bite off another chunk of land, and end up turning them into settlements. They're like advance sentries, meant to take the shock of an initial attack. There's no doubt that these settlements spark even more problems between the two factions, and if any resolve is ever reached, it will be because the Israelis willingly give up these areas in Palestine as part of the agreement. I think the whole intent on the part of the Israelis for having these settlements is as a form of "punishment" to the Palestinians.

Your assessment of what things were like in North Africa fifty years ago tells us a lot about the history of the conflict, and says even more about the ideology surrounding the fundamentalist Muslim beliefs. The only part of the world that has developed over the last thousand years that they are willing to accept readily are those that deal with military applications, and convenience for the ruling class. For the mainstream Muslim, a life of poverty, and deprivation seems to be the norm.

Since the beginning of time, the best way for a ruling class to maintain a tight control over its subjects is to bathe them in ignorance, and feed them a constant diet of religious/political rhetoric.

The fundamentalist Muslims do it well, and even those clerics who are closer to the moderate line of thinking do the same thing, to insure that only a chosen few actually have the opportunity of becoming educated, and worldly. Even then, after so many years of brain-washing rhetoric, when they do receive education, the majority are still blindly loyal to a cause/faith, without questioning any of the ramifications it holds towards their obedience. Hence --- willing suicide candidates, like the group from 9-11, while the less educated become bombers like those we see in Palestine.

Over the years I've heard people say that the only way to combat this problem in the Muslim world is through education. That will never happen. The Muslim clerics will never allow it. You can't maintain blind obedience by the masses, if they are educated, and no matter how much technical help the West gives these nations, the clerics will insure it's turned against the West, and only the chosen few flourish for what is offered. It's the only way they can maintain their iron grip over their subjects.

Adding to our woes is the fact that the anti-Semetic feelings that are growing in Europe play right into the hands of the Muslim clerics. Their intent has always been to cause us to be divided, so we will eventually be able to be dealt with, one by one.

It puzzles me how there's so much anti-Semetic feelings in France. I guess the Jews are this decades "dogs to be kicked around." The last decade it was Americans in general. Apparently they decided we weren't being provoked enough, so switched to another target. Let's just hope these feelings don't spread throughout Europe. I don't want to hear anyone telling me how the Nazi "final solution" was justifiable. I'm afraid it would make me want to vomit. How soon people forget -- conveniently.

Wolf

For many years, I was sort of neutral, leaning to the Palestinian side of things. I think that the truth is that neither side has clean hands, and that neither side wants peace as most of us define peace.

I am always fascinated by the European approach to these kinds of debate and how quickly Americans are depicted as uncaring, uninformed and undereducated. I suppose the French are not at all affected by the euros they make from selling arms to middle eastern countries. Surely only crass American's allow their economic interests to affect their thinking. I hate to say it, but I think a substantial number of people in most countries are more concerned with their own well-being than obscure political conflicts in "remote" areas. In these debates, (whether over politics, energy consumption, art, whatever) Americans are accused of not taking the trouble to understand others; no one is ever concerned that others understand Americans. I would argue that for various historical reasons, we are more pragmatic.

So, for example, as I have come to understand that the Islamic world shunned the printing press for three hundred years, that the "education" being provided the children of Islamic fundamentalists is somewhat limited, and that the religion espoused by large numbers of these same fundamentalists promises great rewards for martyrdom, I have concluded that Israel is probably taking the only option that it has.

I also resent that in spite of our great ignorance as a country, we are expected to lead and then vilified for our "diplomatic failures" while other countries do very little. The EU is bigger, has more economic clout than the US, and more votes in the UN. I don't understand why the problem can't be solved there.

Maybe giving Arafat another Peace Prize would solve the problem!

ernie

I agree with ebetancourt's comments.

I live in Saudi Arabia and there is a lot about the Islamic way of life that most people around the world (Americas, Europe and Asia, etc.) would fraun upon. For starters, women are second class citizens, there is heavy sensorship of the press (has gotten better since the introduction of satelite TV) and the majority of the work force is composed of expatriates like myself. Most locals are lazy and religion comes before humanity here.

I also think that a lot of criticism about American's lack of knowledge about world affairs is only true to a certain extent. Many Americans are aware of world affairs. If we are so lapsed about world affairs, why is the rest world look for us to take the lead in all of the major crisis? Did any Arab nation sent a delegation to Israel to talk to both sides?

Someone commentted on the USA becoming more "cohesive" with the rest of the world. I believe the USA is very cohesive with the world and has been for quite some time. I'm sure our European members here were very glad that we were "cohesive" during WW I and WW II.

Islam may be the fastest growing religion in the world, but it also breeds more terrorists than any other religion in the world. As for the Israelis, they're not that inocent either if Jenin is any example of what they can do.

As for peace in the Middle East, I believe it can be achieved. Israel and Egypt have honored their peace agreement and I believe that peace here (I live here) can be achieved, provided the shooting stops, Israel returns the occupied lands and the rest of the world tells both parties to stop the nonsence.

If you need to know more about living in the Saudi Arabia, just ask. If you are up to it, meet me in Madrid between Agust 13th and the 20th and we can discuss it over copas and tapas.

Saludos a todos del oriente medio!

Hello, as someone said before, this is a topic that here in Spain we care a lot. I would like to do some points about some of the things that have been said before:
Saudi Arabia made a peace plan based on the devolution of all the territories (including the Golan Highs) and the recognition of the State of Israel and the stablishment of peace and normal relations by all the Arab nations. Sharon didn't want even to here of it. Only the USA can force Israel to negotiate as they give the money to support themselves. Israel and USA have never accepted that UN forces goes there although it have been proposed by Palestina since the 2nd Intifada began. Anyway, Israel never will accept an Arab nation as intermadiate negotiator as obviously they're not neutral.

Of course it can be achieved, and I hope it will be. It was almost achived with the plan Clinton. In an interview to Moratinos, he had the opinion that there wasn't enough political time to get an agreement because of the elections on Israel and the end of Clinton government. Anyway it was an agreement only with Palestinians, I think that Israel will never want to leave the Golan Highlands (this a personal feeling) .

About antisemitism in Europe, I don't think it's growing. I think the rise of LePen is motivated because of all the problems that have come with the high inmigration and the cultural crash, as there haven't been an integration of inmigrants in the French culture. Although there have been concentrations against Israel actuation, it doesn't mean antisemitism. Even in Israel there have been protest against it. In Spain, although the Catolic church has still a big influence we are a non religious country and we don't care about the religious believes of anyone.

I won't be here in august to discuss about Saudi Arabia, altohugh I would like to know more things, the things I have heard about them are not good, but as they're a friend country isn't a good thing to talk about them. Anyway, I think they're very different from the countries of North Africa were I have been.

About the UN, Israel have several resolutions forcing them to leave all the occupied territories, but they don't do it and nothing happens so the Arab nations have the feeling than the UN only works when we want, and it loose the moral value it could have.

About terrorism, Israel couldn't avoid the killing of Isaac Rabin, (who was one of the persons who most looked for the peace), and ask Arafat to control terrorism. I know Arafat could make more, but I think that Sharon acts gives more reasons to people for inmolating themselves, if you leave in poverty, with no future, no job, your house destroyed, some friends and family killed ....In Spain we are trying to fight terrorism with democratic arms and I think we will win. A terrorist in my opinion must be judge to demostrate he's guilty.

Well, it's enough by now, sorry for writing so much.

I agree with you MM, this isn't really about Spain. Maybe, only, that good ol' Bin Laden said that he "dreams of the day the Arab horses would be riding through the Andalucian plains to take back Spain."

I'm sorry but I don't really agree with the idea of not being able to discuss live matters in a civilized way.

It is an interesting topic for both americans, spaniards, and the rest of the people who visit this board (swedish, australians, british, ...).

What kind of stimolous will we spaniards have if this is only about Spain? Think of it, my country is beautiful and wonderful, but what I search here is also to meet other forgein cultures and people, knowing their customes and their points of view. I don't really see nothing wrong with that...

Fernando

Toddy, Fernando,

MadridMan hasn't limited our discussion in this thread. He just indicated he'd like to see us channel future posts on the board to Spain, not start new ones that aren't related to Spain and/or Madrid.

What Toddy said is interesting. The fact that bin Laden himself alluded to the past, when Muslims/Arabs controlled the southern regions of Spain. Eventually the Muslim claims will include the two Spanish colonies in Morocco, and could spread to include the southern half of Spain. Based on the practices fundamentalist Muslims believe in, they seem to believe they "own" any land they decide to inhabit. If you don't believe this, look at the domino effect that has taken place in lands that they slowly migrated into during the last forty to fifty years. Either through political means, or by force, and terrorism, they have taken over the governments, and expelled, or killed anyone who disagrees with them.

Spain's belief that they have this wonderful working relationship with nations like Libya is idealistic. If the Spanish government crosses one Muslim nation, they'll have all of the militant states to deal with. What happens then? Would world opinion support Spain, even though she may have undermined the right of Israelis for autonomy? If I was the average Spaniard, these issues would be paramount in my mind. I'd begin to wonder just how viable my country's political position really is.

Wolf (Posing a question worth pondering. You can't switch positions only after they affect you personally.)

Wolf, I was not putting in question MM ability of limit the thematic or even his right to sugest a certain general motivation of the threads. I was just defending that I think it is more interesting indead to be able to discuss actual matters, at least in one of the boards. In fact, I think that MM has done a great job moderating the board...

Some days ago I heard something quite interesting on how the americans (the average) generally form their own opinions. An analist sayed that the average american usually deal with controversial matters in terms of good and bad guys. I don't fully agree with him because what I have seen here makes me think just the oposite. However, when I see your posts this sentence come to my mind. Why the terrorism (yes, that is the word) that Israel makes is more appealing for you than the palestinian one?

In this situation there are not good boys or bad boys. Arafat and the palestinians loose all credit and their right in the same moment they use religion as an excuse and terrorism as a way to deal with problems. And Sharon, a terrorist himself (3000 persons death in three refugee camps, including children, and the dissapearing of the corpses) is doing his best to seed the terror on palestinians, and what is worse: using the machinery of a democratic state (thus I call it state's terrorism, the same we had to stand with the GAL and ETA).

Spaniards are not afraid of an arab ocupation as you may think. What you will probably don't know is that we have excelent relationships with most arab (arab, do not confuse with muslim) countries. We also had/have an excelent relationship with Israel (of which the best exponent is the sefardi community).

It is said that we had the best intelligence network in the arab countries, and it is guessed that our inteligence services were trained by the Mossad (Israel's IS). Overall our relationships with the Magreb countries is fairly good (as well as with Europe, with South and Central America, and even with asiatic countries).

That doesn't keep lybians and moroccians to say from time to time that they would want to bomb Spain, take Ceuta, Melilla or Canarias, or convert Spain in a muslim caliphate once again. Is that a serious possibility? I don't think so. They are probably diplomatic tools, or just bravadas.

One anechdote: Peres was in Valencia the last week. To show how evil the european countries are, and how against Israel we are, he showed to the press a magazine called "El Jueves", in which Sharon was picted as a pig, and titled "Sharon: Ese pedazo de animal" (Sharon: That piece of animal). That same magazine makes constant jokes and caricatures over all public persons (as showing Aznar as a prostitute, or the King in a less than friendly way). The opinion of the people? This Peres must be incredibly stupid to give credit to such a document... (though Peres is nothing but stupid...).

Fernando

The link

El Jueves

Of course they have thanked the free publicity Peres gave to them...

Fernando

toddy, Wolf, Fernando - All of your above posts definately bring this topic into the realm of Spain - and something that I don't think MM finds out of place. The topic might not be something that a casual visitor to Spain would be interested in - but as far as having relevance to Spain and being something that those of us who return again and again to Spain we find it a topic of great interest. The sharing of insights and understanding shown by the board memebrs on this and numerous other 'controversial' topics has added to the knowledge of so many of us from so many countries. I for one, say mucho gracias!

At the risk of sounding pedantic again, I'm inclined to agree that Americans do tend to see people as good or bad. That's the pragmatist in us. Remember that we are a nation of immigrants. We (mostly) left european nations behind because we were unhappy withsome facet of life there. Most of my ancestors were from Galicia (Se acceptan chistes sobre gallegos)and the Canary Islands, and left after 1850. The US is less than 400 years old, and a lot of families have been here less than half that.

I think that what is different about the islamic terrorists (and what I think many Americans see)is that (a)they use religion as a tool to eliminate people they don't like, (b)they keep their people in ignorance, and (c)in spite of what they say, they seem very intent on taking over the world. Palestine and Israael are in the news more, but how do you reconcile Islamic actions in Indonesia and the Phillipines?

I hope Spain never incurs the wrath of islamic terrorists, and if it doesn't, I for one will never believe it was because of sucessful
"talking."

Ernesto

The United States of America is 226 years old.

And Spain was occupied by Muslims and was the focal point of Muslim civilization for 700-years!

Among all the western European nations, Spain may have the best relationship/rapport with the Arab world. Maybe that's why 3-suspected highly placed Al Qaeda operatives (terrorists?) have been 'detained' by Spanish Police during the past 2-weeks. They thought they had a safe refuge in Spain??

Miguelito,

The proposal by the Saudi King has been made before. This gesture, although valid, is not the same as trying to settle the issues as an active participant.

Ernesto (ebetancourt) is stirking the nail on the head with his description of Islamic terrorists. These are just a bunch of murderers using religion as a shield.

Here is some more food for thought. If the Palestinians are freedom fighters, why hide inside the curch of the Nativity? Again, this is another propaganda scheme on their behalf, and again they are endagering the lives of non participants, the Franciscans inside the church.

As for Bin Laden riding in the plains of Spain, I do not see this happening. The Spaniards drove the Muslims out of Spain and I don't think they want these guys back. When I visited Cordoba in 1992, and if my memory serves me right, it appeared to me that "el mesquito" had been conviniently converted to a church.

As far as I know islamic countries in general are not the best examples of how to run a country in a democracy which respects the Human Rights, that is more than true. Palestina is not an exception, that is true (for example they have executed disidents without a court). However, that is not an argument for what Israel is doing there.

I agree with you all, using religion as an excuse is always a big, big error. And the fact that Palestinians use it to make young people to inmolate themselves is repugnant. They also do it because they know that jews value to have the entire corpse when they are buried. They blast israelis to make they bodies pieces, it is doubly cruel.

As for converting a Mezquita to a church I think it is true. In medieval times churches were converted to mezquitas and viceverse. However, it was not really done as an act of humiliation as you may think. As far as I know it has a practical reason (the romanic churches had towers used as minaretes for the mezquitas, and chirstians and moslems respected the temples as sacred places even if they didn't were of their own religion).

As for arabs conquering the south of Spain as if this was an antique movie... Let's allow Ben Laden build his own psicotic fantasies.

It is true that at least 20 Al-Qaeda members (including 2 specially important) have been detained and jailed. It appears that Al-Qaeda had/has it's financial structure here. What a shame

Spain is not a refuge of terrorists, though it is true that some very rich criminals (weapon traficants, rusian mafia, etc) have been hiding in the Costa del Sol, the same way the rich europeans buy properties there and have their retirement. It was very easy for them to hide.

You may be sure of one thing: The public support for these kind of people in Spain is 0%. Is a shame for us to have this people along with us, and thinking that from our country they have managed to kill people.

Fernando

Roe, you are absolutely correct, I was mentally counting "colony" time.

Ernesto