Hello.

It seems that you keep in touch with the spanish news. Have you heard about the conflict in a school of San Lorenzo del Escorial?. I'd like to know what do you think about this topic.

The "facts" are: She is a 13 years old muslin girl and she wants to wear a headscarf in her head when she goest to school. The headscarf doesn't cover her face. The master of the school has forbiden her to do it. The school is a mixture of pulic and private (the money is public). Then, after 4 months without going to school, she has a new (and public) and there, the master and the parents of the rest of the children didn't want her with the headscarf.

There are more things in the ground of the problem ... public against private, although the news has tried to show it as a religious discrimination problem.

Does Spain afford any protection of religious freedom? Seems the headscarf is purely religious, and not a style statement - shouldn't the girl be permitted to practice her religion ... especially since the school is publicly funded??? Very interested in what protection Spain offers its citizens on religious grounds.

I think you've got some basic facts wrong.
Firstly, it is NOT the girl who demands the use of the head scarf, it is her FATHER, who won't let his own daughter receive schooling anywhere without it. (Well, actually noone knows what she thinks or wants, the father is quite a despot). So she's been at home for more than four months now.

In my opinion, this issue is not as simple as it seems.
Don't be mistaken, the school's view on the wearing of the scarf is not based on lack of freedom of religion or respect for other cultures; they oppose the sexism and discrimination that it implies. Think about it, no kids in Spanish schools are tought or receive a different treatment in any aspect depending on their gender (except for the fact that girls may wear skirts and make-up!), so this case would be quite an exception.

The Islamic scarf is, like it or not, a symbol of submission that by the way, we women are sometimes required to wear (and do so respectfully) when visiting certain countries.
Shouldn't these people who have decided to come live here adjust a little bit too?

There's quite a controversy about this matter now, and many people here stand by the father's decision. It's almost 50-50.

Pim,

I am by no means a scholar on Islam, and I know only what I have read in the American media about this particular headscarf issue, but I wanted to ask that you look into your claim that the muslim head scarf is "a symbol of submission".

That seems to be a very ethnocentric view of things. I think it is easy for us in the western world to see the scarf as another tool to oppress women, but I think that the reality of it in their religious beliefs is an entirely different story.
Some Muslim women that I know and that I have spoken with while traveling through Islamic countries see it as a symbol of humility, and wear it happily as an expression of who they are, and of their religious beliefs.
I also think that under no circumstances should a woman of any age be forced to wear a particular garmet or headscarve - as is the case in some countries. But that doesn't merit the kind of broad and seemingly negative statement you were making.

Respectfully,

Bocata King

If I recall correctly, at age 13, the young lady is not a consenting adult, and her parents make decisions that they think best for her.

In this case, it's a decision based on their faith.

If we indicate that it's a "religious issue," and religion should not be present in schools, Spain violates that rule with complete autonomy.

My guess is that the people of Spain would be screaming if they were told that anything that dealt with Catholicism could not be associated with the public school system. That would indicate there's a strong double standard being used.

In this case, isn't that really the question? Is there a double standard being applied that relates to Catholicism vs Muslim? It sure smacks of it in everything that I read. If a child can wear a cross on a neck chain, or on ear-rings, isn't that the same thing?

Since Spain is 99% Catholic, it's going to be a difficult time for the people, as the rights of others, whose faith dictates different dress codes, and customs comes into play. They are just beginning to taste the problems that all other nations that have been allowing immigration have faced for scores of years. It's amazing how "liberal" the statements of Spaniards has been over the years when it comes to other nations, and how they actually react to the same issues when it comes to their own nation.

I'm sorry! It's not the school system's option, or the Spanish government's option, to stomp on the rights of the parents to maintain a degree of decorum related to their religious faith. That is --- until Spain "totally removes" any vestiges of religion from their schools. That is a long way off, and there's going to be a lot more serious questions related to the issue than this one down the road.

Good luck Spain! We've traveled down that road ourselves here in the U.S. In the end? It cost us any vestige of faith in our public school system. We've even had the issue of reciting our "Pledge of Allegiance" brought up as an issue, because it refers to, "One nation under God," in its text. Now ain't that a kicker?

Wolf (Who doesn't want to live long enough to see it being illegal to mention God in a public place, because it's against the law -
)

B.K.,

All I wanted is to correct some facts made in previous statements; like the one about the girl having been prohibited to wear the scarf at her first school and then having to change; the first school was the one pertaining to the district where she lives or whatever (I don't really know how they're assigned, but I'm guessing it has to do with location), but the parents refused it because it was run by Catholic nuns, (like many schools here), which is totally understandable.

So the scarf is only a symbol of humility, Hmmm, I wonder why only women have to show signs of humility, always,....coincidence?
It's not at all surprising that you've encountered women in Islamic countries who feel happy to wear those garments; they're born in that culture, that's all they've ever experienced!
Are you sure it doesn't have anything to do with Islamic men's belief that women (or their looks) are somehow impure?

Keep in mind that when I mentioned before that when western women visit certain places and cover ourselves out of respect I chose not to say it's partially out of fear of maybe being insulted or attacked if we don't.

I'm sorry, but to me it's not that easy to believe that a 13-year-old teenager would be eager to wear something that'd instantly make her look different from all her peers; specially, since if that was the case of this particular one, how could any school be saying anything about it, if it was clearly her own choice?

I agree that it can be way too easy for us to judge (that was my whole point before!)....unless we put ourselves in the other people's shoes. This kid has a father for whom his daughter's education is secundary to other issues, "the system" seems to be more worried about it than him!, the matter has been all over the news for like a week and everybody seems concerned about it!

Happy weekend everyone!

pim,

Nuns wear a habit, and keep their heads covered. Is that a form of subservience to men? My guess is that the nuns who taught in the school had their heads covered too. If the girl's parents are forced to uncover her head, the nuns should be forced to remove their vestiges of Catholicism as well.

Being a Catholic myself, I find it hard to accept that we can have a two faced perspective on this issue. Even today, many Catholic women wear something on their head when they attend Mass, as a respect to their faith. That's all that the parents are asking. That the Spanish government/school system respect these same rights for their family, and their faith.

As for a 13 year old having the right to choose, I don't agree. I recently read that the Spanish government is preparing to change the drinking laws. Nobody under the age of 18 will be allowed in bars - period. The reason? Too much drinking on the streets, and problems with younger drinkers. I guess that tells us that children should not be allowed to decide their lives for themselves, doesn't it?

I wonder what's going to happen to all the night clubs in Spain that have catered to the younger crowd, when they can no longer admit the 16 and 17 year olds. Should be interesting.

In the U.S., we went to an 18 year old drinking law and that didn't work. We had no choice but raise the drinking age to 21. Don't be too surprised if that isn't the next step in Spanish policy, after people realize values gained from the 18 year old law, they want more control. All of which, by the way, indicates that the person under those ages is a "minor," and the parents are responsible for their attire, and what they do. That includes deciding on whether or not the girl wears the head scarf.

Am I knocking your opinion? Not at all. I can understand why you feel the way you do, but from a third party point of view, I also understand the flip side of what you said.

Wolf

Of course the catholic church is sexist also, that's nothing new!
But if some adults who happen to be nuns, have no problem with willingly wearing whatever, why should I or anybody have a problem with it?
BTW, the girl didn't have any trouble whatsover at the nuns' school because it was never considered that she went there, only natural as I said. Sorry if I didn't make it clear.

So the girl doesn't have a say so on....her own life!
That seems quite unfair; she's the one who could be suffering from being discriminated against (I'm thinking about her social life for instance)
Sorry, but I really don't see the parallel with the "'botellón' issue" you are referring to so I won't comment on that.

Finally, nobody is even saying anything regarding what anybody wears at their church services or anywhere else like that. All I was trying to convey (not very successfully it seems), is that MANY PEOPLE HERE ARE MAINLY CONCERNED BECAUSE A GIRL HAS NOT BEEN GETTING HER SCHOOL EDUCATION FOR MONTHS NOW, AND IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE SHE WILL AT LEAST IN THE NEAR FUTURE, AND HER PARENTS (WELL, ONLY HER FATHER SPEAKS OUT) DON'T SEEM TO CARE THAT MUCH.
And so I wonder, if it was a boy we were talking about (of course the "scarf issue" wouldn't exist then, but imagining that it did) would his education be more important for his father? We'll never know....

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: pim ]

....Just as we probably won't ever know the girl's view towards all this. She might LOVE her headscarf!

Wolf, I don't even HAVE an opinion, I have mixed feelings about the matter. But I wanted to explain to the previous "posters"¿? that this is not only a controversy about religion but sexism as well, (and so said the public
statement that the school made)


pim

This is obviously a tricky topic.

From a point of view, I really don't care if the wear a scarf or are dressed as clowns. They may do whatever they want (though in their countries our women have to convey to their dressing rules, which seems really unfair).

Then we realize some facts that surround this particular case... First, the schools had uniforms (rules for dressing). If every pupil must attend to the school dressed in a certain way, then this girl must follow the rules as everybody else.

Her father has forbidden her to attend school without the scarf, which really shows his willing to integrate himself and his family in the spanish society.

The scarf is really a symbol of submission. We can respect it, but we must not allow it to be installed in our society, and less in the public educational system.

She can wear the scarf whenever she wants (noone is telling her to do the opposite) except in the school, in which the scarf is breaking the dressing rules, and it is in fact a cultural wall which makes her difficult to be integrated among the rest of the scholars.

We are now suffering the first stresses of the inmigration issue, it is difficult to accept certain things, but of one thing I'm sure: We must not deny our own cultural values to accept inmigrants. They are coming to our country, they must adapt to our rules, to our laws and to our customs, or go back to their countries.

If I were an emigrant that would be what I would do.

Fernando

Pim,

You seem to understand my point about our perspective as westerners, and I do agree with you that the biggest shame in all of this is that that the girl isn't getting an education over something as minimal as a headscarve.

I would like to say that this makes me appreciate living in a society where people can't be told what they can or can't wear to a public school, but I am not so sure we wouldn't have the exact same problem here in the U.S. if the circumstances were right.

By the way - Muslim men do cover their heads in humility - have you seen the little skull cap (forgive me I don't know the name)they wear in the mosque, and many men wear on the street. I realize that this is in no way as restrictive as the female garb, but some evidence of their practicing none the less!

B.K.

OK, I am jumping in the fray here PIM (dare I??).

First, my responses and opinions are based on my understanding of the situation which is the following:

The 13 year old girl, wearing a head scarf, cannot attend the fully public school in her neighborhood because there aren´t any vacancies. Therefore the state has assigned her to the semi private school and is paying part of her education. Her parents are responsible for paying a reduced amount towards her education as well. A difficult position for either party to be in.

1. Generally speaking, I think that it is fine that a person (male or female) wear garb which they deem appropriate and respectful of their religion always when such clothing is not offensive (i.e. nudity) or physically dangerous to those around them (i.e. getting poked in the eye by a crucifix).

I come from a country (USA) where people have the freedom to choose their religion and to practice it. I have seen the school age girls and boys who practice Islam (both of Arabic descent as well as African Americans) wear a head covering, which is not restrictive to their body movements, to school. I have also seen school aged boys who practice Judaism wear the skull caps or Yamakas (sp?) to school as well. Public school. I think that such mixing is wonderful and helps to enrichen the educational experience. Other children are exposed to other religions (not just their own).

I believe if the school is Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, you name your religion, and PRIVATELY funded, then the school administration has the right to determine the appropriate clothing for school uniforms.. here, there and everywhere. Those who don´t like the rules, go to a different school. We live in a world full of rules. Businesses have required (in inappropriate) attire. Should we rebel and wear what we want to work just because our company thinks that the most appropriate clothing is a navy blue suit, or a polyester uniform?

What should be done in the case of this Muslim girl? Good question, because there is a mix of both issues here. It is clear that neither party wants to give in. The school wants the girl to stop wearing the head piece, the government will only pay part of her education and there isn´t any vacancy at the local public school and the father won´t let the girl go to school unless she wears the head piece.

Hmmm....I see a couple of solutions here:
A. The state pay the full private education of the girl, obliging her to go to school. When the father resists because she isn´t allowed to wear the head piece, then the state take the appropriate legal action that it would take against any Spanish parent that denies their child a right to an education.

B. The state make an exception and allow the girl to go to the local public school, although there aren´t anymore vacancies. That way, she can wear her headscarf and get her education. If the issue of vacancies is so severe, then the state can take one of the children at the local public school, pay for part of its education (as it was doing with the 13 year old Muslim) at the private school therefore creating a vacancy for the Muslim girl at the public school, and giving a child who may not otherwise be able to afford it, a private education.

I definitely see a bit of hypocrisy here on part of the Spanish educational system. If it were so important (to the Spanish) that she get an education, then forget about the darn scarf and educate her!! But it appears that that issue is more than just her lack of school attendance. When every policitian has to jump in and voice their opinion, then it is beyond the girl´s interests. It then becomes a political platform for every politician out there. It is becoming an issue of us versus them:
Catholics vs. Muslims
Spaniards vs. immigrants

I have no doubt that the father values her education. He sees their religous values as part of her education. He also values her education and advancement otherwise he would have never immigrated to Spain from his country for better opportunities for both him and his family. Perhaps if more Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc...practiced what we preached (note the use of first person plural, I am counting myself in that bunch), instead of pulling out the religous card only when it is convenient for us...perhaps this world would be a better place.

With regards to she being 13 years old and being allowed/forced to wear the scarf is really a mute point. There is an age at which a child can or cannot make decisions for him/herself. So, she wants to excercise her rights and NOT wear the scarf to school (if such were the case), we should listen to what SHE thinks is right? And if she thought it were right for her to get pregnant because she wanted a child to care for, we should also allow that to happen? (and I do see the correlation that Wolf was making to the botellón)...I digress.

2. Spain, like the USA is made up of many different cultures. What is one more?

Fernando writes:
We are now suffering the first stresses of the inmigration issue, it is difficult to accept certain things, but of one thing I'm sure: We must not deny our own cultural values to accept inmigrants. They are coming to our country, they must adapt to our rules, to our laws and to our customs, or go back to their countries.
------------

OUCH! That statement stung! That sounds like the infamous American line "my way or the highway".

Should the Americans remove the horrendous American franchises in Spain because they don´t serve customary Spanish food?

I don´t think that by wanting to wear her headscarf (or her father to have her wear her headscarf) the girl is asking the Spanish to deny themselves of their cultural values. She is simply asking for the right not to have to give up hers. I don´t recall reading in the papers anywhere where the family is demanding that the schoolmates of the girl be obliged to wear headscarves like the 13 year old. Perhaps I missed something. Isn´t the family (apart from the headscarf issue) a law abiding family that works hard to make a living? Are they causing problems in their neighborhood? Are they stealing and going against every Spanish social norm?

3. The headscarf is yes, a sign of submission and humility. But it´s a sign of submission and humility before God/Allah... just like the Nuns who wear habits, like the priests who wear collars, like the Jewish men who wear Yamakas and the Bretheren women who wear prayer caps. So what? Perhaps if the Spanish public were to get as angry about the spousal abuse issue, and the men who beat their women INTO SUBMISSION, then THAT would be one less social ill to worry about. One that does offend and cause physical danger to others.

I agree with the Spanish public, it´s a disgrace that this child, note CHILD, is being denied an education all due to her head scarf. However, I think it´s also a disgrace that the state has not come up with a culturally sensitive way to address this issue. Especially at a time when the Spanish government is working hard to develop policy on the fair treatment of immigrants.

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: Chica ]

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: Chica ]

Chica, you've said a very interesting thing: "It is becoming an issue of us versus them:Catholics vs. Muslims, Spaniards vs. immigrants" and ... there's another issue, Public schools vs. Private schools funded with public money (colegios concertados).
I think that people has been trying to stress the religious issue because this kind of issue concern more people.

I just think that the problem is the third one. The Private (with public money) school didn't want the muslin girl (because she is a inmigrant) and they know that her father wouldn't accept to see her without the headscarf so, they have posed the problem as a discrimination/submision problem and now the 50% of the people are agree with them.
In a school TOTALLY private they can do what they want but it's not the case. They use MY money (public money) and they MUST accept the boys/girls that correspond to the school. In the public school the teachers are fed up with this kind of problems. Public-private schools obtain money from us but they almost don't accept inmigrants (they must accept a percent of inmigrants). Here in the public-private school are building walls to avoid that inmigrant girl to go to the school.

Chica's solution is so simple, and should have been offered in the beginning. I wonder why it wasn't

Since parochial schools are considered self sustaining, and not getting support from the government, they've been able to practice discrimination without anyone being able to do anything about it. This issue has pointed that out.

It makes me wonder if she wasn't intentionally sent to the private school, to bring this issue to a head (no pun intended for once.).

Wolf

The separation between private and public schools is not easy to understand for you, I think. The 99% of the private schools are supported by the Government, so they have to obbey some rules like not having any discrimination based in sex, religion, race,... so it's possible for a muslim to go to a Catholic school, although he won't have to go to Catholic religion classes, the rest of the subjects and the education is the same that in any other school. The Government wants to favor integration, so they try to force all the schools to have some places for minorities. I haven't read the laws, so everything I have said I know by hearing although my mother is a teacher and she's a little bit more informed.
I feel the problem with the scarf like a scandal of the press, as I don't find it so important. Now, they are talking of some muslim girls that are not taking the sports class because they cannot wear a sport suit. I find this more grave.
Personally, I'm supporter of a uniform in all schools and some discipline about what is possible to wear or not. Although I don't know what to think in the case of the scarf.
The problem of the multiculture is hard to solve as you don't know where to put the limit, for example, years ago we had the problem of a Jehova witness who didn't left his son to receive a blood transfusion which was necessary for his life....
It's enough by now.
Best regards

It was pointed out to me, by one of our members in a private e-mail, that the parochial school system in Spain isn't nearly like it is in the U.S. Most of the major colleges/universities are Catholic, and the public school system rules still apply to the parochial schools like the one in El Escorial. They must accept students, by law. Here in the U.S., they have more liberties, because they are an arm of the churches, and don't fall under nearly as much scrutiny as they do in Spain.

As was also pointed out to me, the parochial schools in Spain, even at what we'd call a high school level, can be very large, and are run as a business, whereas here in the States, they seem to try to find a way to break even each school year, and if there is a profit of any sort, it's very nominal.

I don't know if Spain allows "home schooling," but if they do, it's very possible the girl is being taught through that method, though I rather doubt it. Especially since the curriculum related to Spain itself would be difficult to teach for someone who is an immigrant themselves (reference the girls parents.).

This case may very well end up as a case that tests the Church against the judicial system, all the way to the Spanish Supreme Court.

Wolf

A few days ago a teenage girl in Alicante - she's from an immigrant Moraccan family - asked her school for help because the girl's mother was trying to force a marriage between the teenager and a man in Morocco. The school notified the proper authorities and, in conjunction with them, got the girl into a protected environment. It seems that the teenager was well aclimated to life in Spain and able to stand up to a parental demand/threat - whatever.

As has been said before - it's usually the older immigrants that have the problems - kids are far more influenced by their peers from matters of dress - to unwanted forced potential marriages.

I really don't have a good concept on moroccians, nor on the Moroccian government (which in fact is a dictatorship). You may call this xenophobia, or racism, or just what I have seen on the attitudes of the majority of the moroccian inmigrants (as always the generalizations are made upon what the majority of the collective does).

I see that many people here is presumming that the moroccian father is well intentioned, and just trying to defend a very basic and respectable religious freedom. I'm not that good-intentioned if you want. What I see here is a social imposition from an alien culture. He is imposing the headscarf to both his daughter AND the public school system. Noone is telling that she may not wear a headscarf, a cap, or an elephant if she wants when on the streets, or in her house. She obviuslly has the right to do so if she wants.

What we are saying is that if a school has some dress rules, she and her father has no right to change them. They should adapt to what the spanish society has stated as valid as our rules for living with one another.

Said this, never mind on how this will end. It has ended a week ago, when the educational authorities have forced the school to accept the girl no matter her dressing. Now the moroccian collectives are claiming that there should be no crucifixes in our schools (though the majority of the society accepts this as valid, no matter their religion).

Just my opinion with a bit of irony... in fact it is really not an important issue for now (we will see in the future if this hipertolerance ends up in a cultural "invasion").

Fernando

Fernando - you wrote:

"What we are saying is that if a school has some dress rules, she and her father has no
right to change them. They should adapt to what the spanish society has stated as
valid as our rules for living with one another."

I think most of us are in agreement with those sentiments; when people immigrate to a host country they are basically expressing their desire to live in, an as a part of, that society.

What shocks me is your next comment:

"Now the moroccian collectives are claiming that there should be no crucifixes in our schools (though the majority of the society accepts this as valid, no matter their religion)."

I repeat: when people immigrate to a host country they are basically expressing their desire to live in, an as a part of, that society.

The news story about teenage girl I mentioned in my earlier post is a good example of how immigration - and adaptation - can work to everyones' benefit. The two examples of young people trying to build new lives are truly in sad contrast.

Fernando, Puna,

Geez! Now that really sinks in. How can we say one thing, then another? If we say force the school to accept the scarf, how can we entertain anyone's theory that the Crucifix should be removed from the schools? We're getting close to a double standard, or even worse, giving away the store, to appease some people. Both represent symbols of a religion.

Then along comes the "arranged marriage." A custom that in my opinion is as barbaric as feeding a virgin to an active volcano, as a religious offering. Neither acceptable in the Western World. Since the Moorish family is living in Spain, the father should be forced to accept Spanish law on this one. If not, they should put the ignorant SOB in a rowboat with a big leak, and send him packing across the Straits of Gibraltar.

More and more I'm beginning to believe that the invasion of people through immigration in modern day is a real problem to the heritage and culture of a nation. Not only do they want to "live there," but they want to "change the nation" to their way of thinking, despite being a small minority. Not as much to fit in, but to get everyone else to do what they think is right. This becomes even more apparent in the Muslim world, where hard line fundamentalists overthrow governments representing the majority, to force their will on the population.

Now we're getting into civil rights again, and the vicious circle starts all over again.

Wolf (Who wonders if God really knows what a mess we've made down here - )

You made there a point Wolf, both are religious symbols.

Now lets put things in context (just for you to understand a bit more my opinion). The USA has a religious diversity I think not many countries have. That way, you americans have decided that the best way to tolerate one another and to live peacefully and comfortably is to don't have any religious symbols in your schools (for example).

In Spain the religion spectrum is narrower. Most of the people are catholic (with more or less faith), or they don't believe in God (agnostics, deists). Of course there are jews, moslems, hinduists, anglicans, protestants, mormons, etc, but they are a minority, and those who are spanish (have grown here at least), accept the symbols that the great majority has stated as apropiate, taking them as not offensive to their own religions.

The problem here is not as religious as it may be seen, it is social. Spaniards dress in a casual way, and headscarfs are really seen not as religious sheet, but as an imposition to the women. That is not the point, the point is that a girl in a school where everybody except her is dressing in a certain way can't integrate herself in the community normally. What would happen in the gym classes? The headscarf will limit what she can do. Thus, the father wants a school to break their own rules saying it is a religious stuff.

In Melilla 30-40% of the citizens are moslem, of course the standards there are not the same as in the Peninsula, and nobody would interfere in what they have decided it is "normal".

It is as if my mother goes to Saudi Arabia and wants to wear jeans in the streets... you have to accept the rules of the other countries, and not trying to impose your standards.

Probably in the future the heirs of the inmigrants will be an important minority, and thus we will have to change our standards. But now things are as they are. What is valid for the common spaniards is also valid for the inmigrants (Fernando said :p)

I really respect the freedom of religion, if someone has taken wrong conclusions from my words

Fernando