Pim,

You seem to understand my point about our perspective as westerners, and I do agree with you that the biggest shame in all of this is that that the girl isn't getting an education over something as minimal as a headscarve.

I would like to say that this makes me appreciate living in a society where people can't be told what they can or can't wear to a public school, but I am not so sure we wouldn't have the exact same problem here in the U.S. if the circumstances were right.

By the way - Muslim men do cover their heads in humility - have you seen the little skull cap (forgive me I don't know the name)they wear in the mosque, and many men wear on the street. I realize that this is in no way as restrictive as the female garb, but some evidence of their practicing none the less!

B.K.

OK, I am jumping in the fray here PIM (dare I??).

First, my responses and opinions are based on my understanding of the situation which is the following:

The 13 year old girl, wearing a head scarf, cannot attend the fully public school in her neighborhood because there aren´t any vacancies. Therefore the state has assigned her to the semi private school and is paying part of her education. Her parents are responsible for paying a reduced amount towards her education as well. A difficult position for either party to be in.

1. Generally speaking, I think that it is fine that a person (male or female) wear garb which they deem appropriate and respectful of their religion always when such clothing is not offensive (i.e. nudity) or physically dangerous to those around them (i.e. getting poked in the eye by a crucifix).

I come from a country (USA) where people have the freedom to choose their religion and to practice it. I have seen the school age girls and boys who practice Islam (both of Arabic descent as well as African Americans) wear a head covering, which is not restrictive to their body movements, to school. I have also seen school aged boys who practice Judaism wear the skull caps or Yamakas (sp?) to school as well. Public school. I think that such mixing is wonderful and helps to enrichen the educational experience. Other children are exposed to other religions (not just their own).

I believe if the school is Catholic, Jewish, Islamic, you name your religion, and PRIVATELY funded, then the school administration has the right to determine the appropriate clothing for school uniforms.. here, there and everywhere. Those who don´t like the rules, go to a different school. We live in a world full of rules. Businesses have required (in inappropriate) attire. Should we rebel and wear what we want to work just because our company thinks that the most appropriate clothing is a navy blue suit, or a polyester uniform?

What should be done in the case of this Muslim girl? Good question, because there is a mix of both issues here. It is clear that neither party wants to give in. The school wants the girl to stop wearing the head piece, the government will only pay part of her education and there isn´t any vacancy at the local public school and the father won´t let the girl go to school unless she wears the head piece.

Hmmm....I see a couple of solutions here:
A. The state pay the full private education of the girl, obliging her to go to school. When the father resists because she isn´t allowed to wear the head piece, then the state take the appropriate legal action that it would take against any Spanish parent that denies their child a right to an education.

B. The state make an exception and allow the girl to go to the local public school, although there aren´t anymore vacancies. That way, she can wear her headscarf and get her education. If the issue of vacancies is so severe, then the state can take one of the children at the local public school, pay for part of its education (as it was doing with the 13 year old Muslim) at the private school therefore creating a vacancy for the Muslim girl at the public school, and giving a child who may not otherwise be able to afford it, a private education.

I definitely see a bit of hypocrisy here on part of the Spanish educational system. If it were so important (to the Spanish) that she get an education, then forget about the darn scarf and educate her!! But it appears that that issue is more than just her lack of school attendance. When every policitian has to jump in and voice their opinion, then it is beyond the girl´s interests. It then becomes a political platform for every politician out there. It is becoming an issue of us versus them:
Catholics vs. Muslims
Spaniards vs. immigrants

I have no doubt that the father values her education. He sees their religous values as part of her education. He also values her education and advancement otherwise he would have never immigrated to Spain from his country for better opportunities for both him and his family. Perhaps if more Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc...practiced what we preached (note the use of first person plural, I am counting myself in that bunch), instead of pulling out the religous card only when it is convenient for us...perhaps this world would be a better place.

With regards to she being 13 years old and being allowed/forced to wear the scarf is really a mute point. There is an age at which a child can or cannot make decisions for him/herself. So, she wants to excercise her rights and NOT wear the scarf to school (if such were the case), we should listen to what SHE thinks is right? And if she thought it were right for her to get pregnant because she wanted a child to care for, we should also allow that to happen? (and I do see the correlation that Wolf was making to the botellón)...I digress.

2. Spain, like the USA is made up of many different cultures. What is one more?

Fernando writes:
We are now suffering the first stresses of the inmigration issue, it is difficult to accept certain things, but of one thing I'm sure: We must not deny our own cultural values to accept inmigrants. They are coming to our country, they must adapt to our rules, to our laws and to our customs, or go back to their countries.
------------

OUCH! That statement stung! That sounds like the infamous American line "my way or the highway".

Should the Americans remove the horrendous American franchises in Spain because they don´t serve customary Spanish food?

I don´t think that by wanting to wear her headscarf (or her father to have her wear her headscarf) the girl is asking the Spanish to deny themselves of their cultural values. She is simply asking for the right not to have to give up hers. I don´t recall reading in the papers anywhere where the family is demanding that the schoolmates of the girl be obliged to wear headscarves like the 13 year old. Perhaps I missed something. Isn´t the family (apart from the headscarf issue) a law abiding family that works hard to make a living? Are they causing problems in their neighborhood? Are they stealing and going against every Spanish social norm?

3. The headscarf is yes, a sign of submission and humility. But it´s a sign of submission and humility before God/Allah... just like the Nuns who wear habits, like the priests who wear collars, like the Jewish men who wear Yamakas and the Bretheren women who wear prayer caps. So what? Perhaps if the Spanish public were to get as angry about the spousal abuse issue, and the men who beat their women INTO SUBMISSION, then THAT would be one less social ill to worry about. One that does offend and cause physical danger to others.

I agree with the Spanish public, it´s a disgrace that this child, note CHILD, is being denied an education all due to her head scarf. However, I think it´s also a disgrace that the state has not come up with a culturally sensitive way to address this issue. Especially at a time when the Spanish government is working hard to develop policy on the fair treatment of immigrants.

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: Chica ]

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: Chica ]

Chica, you've said a very interesting thing: "It is becoming an issue of us versus them:Catholics vs. Muslims, Spaniards vs. immigrants" and ... there's another issue, Public schools vs. Private schools funded with public money (colegios concertados).
I think that people has been trying to stress the religious issue because this kind of issue concern more people.

I just think that the problem is the third one. The Private (with public money) school didn't want the muslin girl (because she is a inmigrant) and they know that her father wouldn't accept to see her without the headscarf so, they have posed the problem as a discrimination/submision problem and now the 50% of the people are agree with them.
In a school TOTALLY private they can do what they want but it's not the case. They use MY money (public money) and they MUST accept the boys/girls that correspond to the school. In the public school the teachers are fed up with this kind of problems. Public-private schools obtain money from us but they almost don't accept inmigrants (they must accept a percent of inmigrants). Here in the public-private school are building walls to avoid that inmigrant girl to go to the school.

Chica's solution is so simple, and should have been offered in the beginning. I wonder why it wasn't

Since parochial schools are considered self sustaining, and not getting support from the government, they've been able to practice discrimination without anyone being able to do anything about it. This issue has pointed that out.

It makes me wonder if she wasn't intentionally sent to the private school, to bring this issue to a head (no pun intended for once.).

Wolf

The separation between private and public schools is not easy to understand for you, I think. The 99% of the private schools are supported by the Government, so they have to obbey some rules like not having any discrimination based in sex, religion, race,... so it's possible for a muslim to go to a Catholic school, although he won't have to go to Catholic religion classes, the rest of the subjects and the education is the same that in any other school. The Government wants to favor integration, so they try to force all the schools to have some places for minorities. I haven't read the laws, so everything I have said I know by hearing although my mother is a teacher and she's a little bit more informed.
I feel the problem with the scarf like a scandal of the press, as I don't find it so important. Now, they are talking of some muslim girls that are not taking the sports class because they cannot wear a sport suit. I find this more grave.
Personally, I'm supporter of a uniform in all schools and some discipline about what is possible to wear or not. Although I don't know what to think in the case of the scarf.
The problem of the multiculture is hard to solve as you don't know where to put the limit, for example, years ago we had the problem of a Jehova witness who didn't left his son to receive a blood transfusion which was necessary for his life....
It's enough by now.
Best regards

It was pointed out to me, by one of our members in a private e-mail, that the parochial school system in Spain isn't nearly like it is in the U.S. Most of the major colleges/universities are Catholic, and the public school system rules still apply to the parochial schools like the one in El Escorial. They must accept students, by law. Here in the U.S., they have more liberties, because they are an arm of the churches, and don't fall under nearly as much scrutiny as they do in Spain.

As was also pointed out to me, the parochial schools in Spain, even at what we'd call a high school level, can be very large, and are run as a business, whereas here in the States, they seem to try to find a way to break even each school year, and if there is a profit of any sort, it's very nominal.

I don't know if Spain allows "home schooling," but if they do, it's very possible the girl is being taught through that method, though I rather doubt it. Especially since the curriculum related to Spain itself would be difficult to teach for someone who is an immigrant themselves (reference the girls parents.).

This case may very well end up as a case that tests the Church against the judicial system, all the way to the Spanish Supreme Court.

Wolf

A few days ago a teenage girl in Alicante - she's from an immigrant Moraccan family - asked her school for help because the girl's mother was trying to force a marriage between the teenager and a man in Morocco. The school notified the proper authorities and, in conjunction with them, got the girl into a protected environment. It seems that the teenager was well aclimated to life in Spain and able to stand up to a parental demand/threat - whatever.

As has been said before - it's usually the older immigrants that have the problems - kids are far more influenced by their peers from matters of dress - to unwanted forced potential marriages.

I really don't have a good concept on moroccians, nor on the Moroccian government (which in fact is a dictatorship). You may call this xenophobia, or racism, or just what I have seen on the attitudes of the majority of the moroccian inmigrants (as always the generalizations are made upon what the majority of the collective does).

I see that many people here is presumming that the moroccian father is well intentioned, and just trying to defend a very basic and respectable religious freedom. I'm not that good-intentioned if you want. What I see here is a social imposition from an alien culture. He is imposing the headscarf to both his daughter AND the public school system. Noone is telling that she may not wear a headscarf, a cap, or an elephant if she wants when on the streets, or in her house. She obviuslly has the right to do so if she wants.

What we are saying is that if a school has some dress rules, she and her father has no right to change them. They should adapt to what the spanish society has stated as valid as our rules for living with one another.

Said this, never mind on how this will end. It has ended a week ago, when the educational authorities have forced the school to accept the girl no matter her dressing. Now the moroccian collectives are claiming that there should be no crucifixes in our schools (though the majority of the society accepts this as valid, no matter their religion).

Just my opinion with a bit of irony... in fact it is really not an important issue for now (we will see in the future if this hipertolerance ends up in a cultural "invasion").

Fernando

Fernando - you wrote:

"What we are saying is that if a school has some dress rules, she and her father has no
right to change them. They should adapt to what the spanish society has stated as
valid as our rules for living with one another."

I think most of us are in agreement with those sentiments; when people immigrate to a host country they are basically expressing their desire to live in, an as a part of, that society.

What shocks me is your next comment:

"Now the moroccian collectives are claiming that there should be no crucifixes in our schools (though the majority of the society accepts this as valid, no matter their religion)."

I repeat: when people immigrate to a host country they are basically expressing their desire to live in, an as a part of, that society.

The news story about teenage girl I mentioned in my earlier post is a good example of how immigration - and adaptation - can work to everyones' benefit. The two examples of young people trying to build new lives are truly in sad contrast.

Fernando, Puna,

Geez! Now that really sinks in. How can we say one thing, then another? If we say force the school to accept the scarf, how can we entertain anyone's theory that the Crucifix should be removed from the schools? We're getting close to a double standard, or even worse, giving away the store, to appease some people. Both represent symbols of a religion.

Then along comes the "arranged marriage." A custom that in my opinion is as barbaric as feeding a virgin to an active volcano, as a religious offering. Neither acceptable in the Western World. Since the Moorish family is living in Spain, the father should be forced to accept Spanish law on this one. If not, they should put the ignorant SOB in a rowboat with a big leak, and send him packing across the Straits of Gibraltar.

More and more I'm beginning to believe that the invasion of people through immigration in modern day is a real problem to the heritage and culture of a nation. Not only do they want to "live there," but they want to "change the nation" to their way of thinking, despite being a small minority. Not as much to fit in, but to get everyone else to do what they think is right. This becomes even more apparent in the Muslim world, where hard line fundamentalists overthrow governments representing the majority, to force their will on the population.

Now we're getting into civil rights again, and the vicious circle starts all over again.

Wolf (Who wonders if God really knows what a mess we've made down here - )