Hello.

It seems that you keep in touch with the spanish news. Have you heard about the conflict in a school of San Lorenzo del Escorial?. I'd like to know what do you think about this topic.

The "facts" are: She is a 13 years old muslin girl and she wants to wear a headscarf in her head when she goest to school. The headscarf doesn't cover her face. The master of the school has forbiden her to do it. The school is a mixture of pulic and private (the money is public). Then, after 4 months without going to school, she has a new (and public) and there, the master and the parents of the rest of the children didn't want her with the headscarf.

There are more things in the ground of the problem ... public against private, although the news has tried to show it as a religious discrimination problem.

Does Spain afford any protection of religious freedom? Seems the headscarf is purely religious, and not a style statement - shouldn't the girl be permitted to practice her religion ... especially since the school is publicly funded??? Very interested in what protection Spain offers its citizens on religious grounds.

I think you've got some basic facts wrong.
Firstly, it is NOT the girl who demands the use of the head scarf, it is her FATHER, who won't let his own daughter receive schooling anywhere without it. (Well, actually noone knows what she thinks or wants, the father is quite a despot). So she's been at home for more than four months now.

In my opinion, this issue is not as simple as it seems.
Don't be mistaken, the school's view on the wearing of the scarf is not based on lack of freedom of religion or respect for other cultures; they oppose the sexism and discrimination that it implies. Think about it, no kids in Spanish schools are tought or receive a different treatment in any aspect depending on their gender (except for the fact that girls may wear skirts and make-up!), so this case would be quite an exception.

The Islamic scarf is, like it or not, a symbol of submission that by the way, we women are sometimes required to wear (and do so respectfully) when visiting certain countries.
Shouldn't these people who have decided to come live here adjust a little bit too?

There's quite a controversy about this matter now, and many people here stand by the father's decision. It's almost 50-50.

Pim,

I am by no means a scholar on Islam, and I know only what I have read in the American media about this particular headscarf issue, but I wanted to ask that you look into your claim that the muslim head scarf is "a symbol of submission".

That seems to be a very ethnocentric view of things. I think it is easy for us in the western world to see the scarf as another tool to oppress women, but I think that the reality of it in their religious beliefs is an entirely different story.
Some Muslim women that I know and that I have spoken with while traveling through Islamic countries see it as a symbol of humility, and wear it happily as an expression of who they are, and of their religious beliefs.
I also think that under no circumstances should a woman of any age be forced to wear a particular garmet or headscarve - as is the case in some countries. But that doesn't merit the kind of broad and seemingly negative statement you were making.

Respectfully,

Bocata King

If I recall correctly, at age 13, the young lady is not a consenting adult, and her parents make decisions that they think best for her.

In this case, it's a decision based on their faith.

If we indicate that it's a "religious issue," and religion should not be present in schools, Spain violates that rule with complete autonomy.

My guess is that the people of Spain would be screaming if they were told that anything that dealt with Catholicism could not be associated with the public school system. That would indicate there's a strong double standard being used.

In this case, isn't that really the question? Is there a double standard being applied that relates to Catholicism vs Muslim? It sure smacks of it in everything that I read. If a child can wear a cross on a neck chain, or on ear-rings, isn't that the same thing?

Since Spain is 99% Catholic, it's going to be a difficult time for the people, as the rights of others, whose faith dictates different dress codes, and customs comes into play. They are just beginning to taste the problems that all other nations that have been allowing immigration have faced for scores of years. It's amazing how "liberal" the statements of Spaniards has been over the years when it comes to other nations, and how they actually react to the same issues when it comes to their own nation.

I'm sorry! It's not the school system's option, or the Spanish government's option, to stomp on the rights of the parents to maintain a degree of decorum related to their religious faith. That is --- until Spain "totally removes" any vestiges of religion from their schools. That is a long way off, and there's going to be a lot more serious questions related to the issue than this one down the road.

Good luck Spain! We've traveled down that road ourselves here in the U.S. In the end? It cost us any vestige of faith in our public school system. We've even had the issue of reciting our "Pledge of Allegiance" brought up as an issue, because it refers to, "One nation under God," in its text. Now ain't that a kicker?

Wolf (Who doesn't want to live long enough to see it being illegal to mention God in a public place, because it's against the law -
)

B.K.,

All I wanted is to correct some facts made in previous statements; like the one about the girl having been prohibited to wear the scarf at her first school and then having to change; the first school was the one pertaining to the district where she lives or whatever (I don't really know how they're assigned, but I'm guessing it has to do with location), but the parents refused it because it was run by Catholic nuns, (like many schools here), which is totally understandable.

So the scarf is only a symbol of humility, Hmmm, I wonder why only women have to show signs of humility, always,....coincidence?
It's not at all surprising that you've encountered women in Islamic countries who feel happy to wear those garments; they're born in that culture, that's all they've ever experienced!
Are you sure it doesn't have anything to do with Islamic men's belief that women (or their looks) are somehow impure?

Keep in mind that when I mentioned before that when western women visit certain places and cover ourselves out of respect I chose not to say it's partially out of fear of maybe being insulted or attacked if we don't.

I'm sorry, but to me it's not that easy to believe that a 13-year-old teenager would be eager to wear something that'd instantly make her look different from all her peers; specially, since if that was the case of this particular one, how could any school be saying anything about it, if it was clearly her own choice?

I agree that it can be way too easy for us to judge (that was my whole point before!)....unless we put ourselves in the other people's shoes. This kid has a father for whom his daughter's education is secundary to other issues, "the system" seems to be more worried about it than him!, the matter has been all over the news for like a week and everybody seems concerned about it!

Happy weekend everyone!

pim,

Nuns wear a habit, and keep their heads covered. Is that a form of subservience to men? My guess is that the nuns who taught in the school had their heads covered too. If the girl's parents are forced to uncover her head, the nuns should be forced to remove their vestiges of Catholicism as well.

Being a Catholic myself, I find it hard to accept that we can have a two faced perspective on this issue. Even today, many Catholic women wear something on their head when they attend Mass, as a respect to their faith. That's all that the parents are asking. That the Spanish government/school system respect these same rights for their family, and their faith.

As for a 13 year old having the right to choose, I don't agree. I recently read that the Spanish government is preparing to change the drinking laws. Nobody under the age of 18 will be allowed in bars - period. The reason? Too much drinking on the streets, and problems with younger drinkers. I guess that tells us that children should not be allowed to decide their lives for themselves, doesn't it?

I wonder what's going to happen to all the night clubs in Spain that have catered to the younger crowd, when they can no longer admit the 16 and 17 year olds. Should be interesting.

In the U.S., we went to an 18 year old drinking law and that didn't work. We had no choice but raise the drinking age to 21. Don't be too surprised if that isn't the next step in Spanish policy, after people realize values gained from the 18 year old law, they want more control. All of which, by the way, indicates that the person under those ages is a "minor," and the parents are responsible for their attire, and what they do. That includes deciding on whether or not the girl wears the head scarf.

Am I knocking your opinion? Not at all. I can understand why you feel the way you do, but from a third party point of view, I also understand the flip side of what you said.

Wolf

Of course the catholic church is sexist also, that's nothing new!
But if some adults who happen to be nuns, have no problem with willingly wearing whatever, why should I or anybody have a problem with it?
BTW, the girl didn't have any trouble whatsover at the nuns' school because it was never considered that she went there, only natural as I said. Sorry if I didn't make it clear.

So the girl doesn't have a say so on....her own life!
That seems quite unfair; she's the one who could be suffering from being discriminated against (I'm thinking about her social life for instance)
Sorry, but I really don't see the parallel with the "'botellón' issue" you are referring to so I won't comment on that.

Finally, nobody is even saying anything regarding what anybody wears at their church services or anywhere else like that. All I was trying to convey (not very successfully it seems), is that MANY PEOPLE HERE ARE MAINLY CONCERNED BECAUSE A GIRL HAS NOT BEEN GETTING HER SCHOOL EDUCATION FOR MONTHS NOW, AND IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE SHE WILL AT LEAST IN THE NEAR FUTURE, AND HER PARENTS (WELL, ONLY HER FATHER SPEAKS OUT) DON'T SEEM TO CARE THAT MUCH.
And so I wonder, if it was a boy we were talking about (of course the "scarf issue" wouldn't exist then, but imagining that it did) would his education be more important for his father? We'll never know....

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: pim ]

....Just as we probably won't ever know the girl's view towards all this. She might LOVE her headscarf!

Wolf, I don't even HAVE an opinion, I have mixed feelings about the matter. But I wanted to explain to the previous "posters"¿? that this is not only a controversy about religion but sexism as well, (and so said the public
statement that the school made)


pim

This is obviously a tricky topic.

From a point of view, I really don't care if the wear a scarf or are dressed as clowns. They may do whatever they want (though in their countries our women have to convey to their dressing rules, which seems really unfair).

Then we realize some facts that surround this particular case... First, the schools had uniforms (rules for dressing). If every pupil must attend to the school dressed in a certain way, then this girl must follow the rules as everybody else.

Her father has forbidden her to attend school without the scarf, which really shows his willing to integrate himself and his family in the spanish society.

The scarf is really a symbol of submission. We can respect it, but we must not allow it to be installed in our society, and less in the public educational system.

She can wear the scarf whenever she wants (noone is telling her to do the opposite) except in the school, in which the scarf is breaking the dressing rules, and it is in fact a cultural wall which makes her difficult to be integrated among the rest of the scholars.

We are now suffering the first stresses of the inmigration issue, it is difficult to accept certain things, but of one thing I'm sure: We must not deny our own cultural values to accept inmigrants. They are coming to our country, they must adapt to our rules, to our laws and to our customs, or go back to their countries.

If I were an emigrant that would be what I would do.

Fernando