I hope the beloved city of Barcelona takes seriously the reaction of the NAACP to the recent event in Spain ( see article here ). I hope that it maintains its both progressive and pragmatic approaches to Spain and to the global community. If it buries itself in Catalan elitism, in this instance especially, it will injure very important Spanish and of course Catalan ties to the United States (especially in the economic arena).

I hope that all the regions of Spain try and encourage the Barcelona police to work in resolving this issue with the NAACP.

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

That is really awful. No simpering, forced apology could make up for being beaten so badly. stupid. I hope he doesn't experience any permanent injuries; it would certainly make his career as a musician difficult...

Mmm, I don't know if we should give credit to this notice.

Something like that would have been a headline in all our newspapers.

By the way, it is nothing to be proud of, but also nothing to make a race against the spanish police. Our polices (all of them) are extremly correct when they deal with suspects, and far less agresive like, for example, in the USA.

It is not chauvinistic, but I really believe that the spanish justice needs no international intervention to solve such extralimitations of 4 isolated (probably corrupt) policemen.

Regards.

Fernando

Hey Fernando and company!

Yes, it's true. The story appeared in the news on the T.V. few weeks ago. But I agree with Fernando. Our police has nothing to do with U.S. police. Even in their actions against E.T.A. or against the Kale Borroka (street struggle) they don't shoot nor use their strength.

It is just an isolated event that I suposse it will be carefully studied. They must research into the events.

I don't think that it have something to do with racism. I'm sure that if the suspect were white and struggle with them to avoid the arrest I'd have past the same.

how bizarre for me to read this now ... the Barcelona Symphony was on tour in the US late January and I saw them here in South Florida ... I am surprised the press didn't catch on to it locally. Anyway, I hope that it doesn't permanently affect this musicians' career.

First - the entire incident, beyond doubt, is wrong and very possibly racist in origion! But, I agree with the last two posts in that the situation is one for the Spanish legal authorities to deal with - not the US authorities nor the NAACP. Of course, the NAACP has the right to express concern but resolving the situation is NOTup to any representative of the US. The US embassy obviously has the right to intervene if asked to do so by the victim. However, the incident occurred on Spanish soil - the Spanish government certainly is concerned about the incident; I have to believe proper steps will be taken to investigate and penalize, if warranted,(and I do believe they are guilty) the four police involved.

Puna, Fernando, hombre … churro … all already posted,

I completely agree ... a shame that such a person would be put through the trauma of a "police attack."

Anyone - NAACP, US Embassy - is entitled to speak on behalf of the musician, but has no right to interfere on Spanish soil. The Spanish police – especially in Barcelona – are probably already quite embarrassed.

I'd suggest the NAACP stay closer to home - the US has a far larger problem with "racial-profiling." It's a tricky subject - the police need to do their jobs efficiently, and we citizens have the right to avoid harassment.

It’s not the NAACP’s job to “police” Spain – they have enough work to do back in the U.S.

Sad, but true.

I believe there are thousands of documented cases of racial and police violence complaints not by any US organization but by Spanish organizations.

But, I think everybody missed my point. My main argument was an economic one.
I can just about promise that if the NAACP is not satisfied with the investigation then they will push for a US economic boycott of Barcelona and possibly even Spain. They have been VERY successful in this and have forced a lot of change. I would hate to know that I have to morally boycott Spanish goods.

"Our polices (all of them) are extremly correct" Wow, can anyone argue with this? I know Spain's a cool country but Utopia?

Oh, and by the way, I have to admit (in all due respect MadridMan)my favorite region in Spain is Catalonia and my favorite city is Barcelona. Visca la Barca!

[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

There are incidents of police brutality in probably every country. That doesn't make the country bad or the police bad. It just means there's a few police officers who don't act in accordance with the law. I get tired of hearing how there's so much police brutality in the U.S., when the vast majority of the accusations are false, and when they are proven false, the media doesn't bother to print that, because it isn't as news-worthy as screaming, "POLICE BRUTALITY!"

I wonder what led up to the incident. Until the investigation is over, I'll keep a clear mind, and as for the NAACP, don't they have anything better to do than try to encite racial problems without full knowledge of what happened? It's time they start to realize that their whole reason for existence is to help create harmony between races, not incite race riots, hatred, and bigotry.

Wolf

You are right Wolf, but there is still a very strong pragmatic point that has to be considered. Just look at how far the NAACP has taken some southern states. What an oportune (or in)time for them to think and act globaly. Modern racial politics is just recently starting to take hold in Europe. Think of possible ramifications. I didn't want to be an alarmist, I just wanted to raise awareness.

Toddy,

I'm not certain that I see the NAACP as a player in the international set. Fortunately their involvement in this matter was done through the U.S. State Department, and the U.S. Ambassador to Spain, not directly in confrontation to the Spanish government.

What concerns me most is that the State Department and the Ambassador had already began their own investigation of the incident, and were working with Spanish police officials to get at the truth as to what happened, and to find out if there was a civil rights violation.

The NAACP was very much aware of this, yet used the media to turn it into a three ring circus. If that was their intent, they did a good job of it, but it certainly won't help the situation as it stands.

If anything it will cause the Spanish police to become less open about the incident, and they certainly won't answer to any charges lodged against them by the NAACP. As far as they're concerned, they don't even exist.

Wolf

I don't agree with you all. Unfortunately, these incidents happen more often than we think, but rarely they happen with a famous musician, so we don't know about them. I think in general the treatment of the police with the low class inmigrants living in the cities is not totally correct, but the problem is that the managers of the police don't want to solve it. The treatment of the Government with this kind of inmigrants is embarrasing, long queues to get papers and problems with everything...
I think it's necessary a firm complain of the US embassy and diplomatic pressure to make that everything come clear and the right punish to the responsables, because normally the police try to justify all these things and bury it.
By other side, I think comercial or economic pressure has no sense.

Yes, Miguelito, incidents probably do happen more than the general public is aware - but, as Wolf stated, the media generates dollars by getting viewers/ readers/listeners (i.e. ratings that justify advertising dollars) and, sad to say, sensationalism sells. Purely economics. I am NOT berating the media - I am stating a well known fact that reporters, etc. do not and can not determine the overall approach of the media they are employed by. That's why Wolf is correct in saying the general public is rarely made aware of the non-sensational
side of an issue.

And I stand firmly behind the statement that the NAACP does not and never will be justified in getting involved. As someone stated - there are a lot of organizations in Spain are trying to eliminate racial problems.

[ 02-08-2002: Message edited by: Puna ]

Miguelito, all,

I'm going to tell a couple of stories here that happened. I know, I was there. I was a cop myself.

A hold-up took place in a town. The person who commited it shot and killed the clerk and a 10 year old boy who was a customer in the store, after he got the money. He wasn't going to leave any witnesses behind. As he sped away in his car, a person who worked in the store next to the convenience store that was robbed heard the shots, and stepped outside her door in time to see the "suspect" speeding away in a car. She called the police, and said which direction he was traveling, and described the man, and the car. She did say, "An old blue car, with the vinyl roof peeling off."

An all points bulletin was immediately issued to all the surrounding towns. One officer, on a freeway, saw a "green" car, not blue drive by him slowly, but it had a raggedy vinyl top. Even though the car was the wrong color, he remembered the APB saying the man was black, and wore an afro. The guy in the car appeared to have an afro, but was trying to hide it under a baseball cap.

The officer pulled in behind the car, and turned on his lights, and had the driver pull over. As he pulled over behind him, the officer called in on his radio, and told the dispatcher that he'd made a stop, but it might not be the suspect. He asked for a back up, and I responded.

By the time the officer glanced up from his radio, the man was out of his car, and beside the police cruiser. He had pulled a gun and told the officer to hand his over. Needless to say, the cop knew he had the right guy.

"Yeah! Here! It ain't worth dying over." The officer said, as he slowly reached for the gun. Then, after he got the leather safety snap off, he leaned back in his seat and pulled the gun quickly, not to hand it over, but defend himself.

The suspect fired his gun. He hit the officer on the front part of the left shoulder, the bullet going through him, grazing his heart, and coming out on his right side.

The officer fired four shots "through the door of the car," hitting the man twice. He fell to the pavement.

Not knowing whether he was going to live or die, the officer found the strength to get out of the car, and decided that the suspect was not going to grab a hostage, or kill anyone else. Thinking it was his last moments on earth himself, he pulled the hammer back on his gun, and fired a shot into the man's forehead, as he lay prone on the ground, possibly only wounded.

Two cars drove by the scene and saw the officer shoot the man in the head. It led to an investigation, and he was nearly charged with "police abuse," because of his actions, and there those who called for murder charges.

When I arrived on the scene, both men were laying in a pool of blood. I called for two ambulances and additional help. The police officer survived.

A month later a hearing was held. "Outraged citizens" showed up accusing the officer of murder. On the second day of the hearing, which drew national attention, several more people showed up, after seeing what happened the first day, and said that they saw the man shoot the officer. They had seen the puff of smoke, then moments later saw the door of the police car being blown apart, as the officer fired back. He was exhonerated, but the newspapers failed to put that into their print. All they said was that the cop should have used "more discretion." To me, and to almost any cop alive, he did the right thing. To anyone who's children could have been endangered by this suspect (who was the killer at the store, ballistics proved it.), he did the right thing. To a community that doesn't want to hear the truth, he'll always be a killer cop.

The second incident directly involved me. A guy was trying to strong arm an old woman, to get her purse. He stood between me and the woman, and had a straight razor. He could either come at me, or the woman. When she took a step back, he turned slightly to face her, at which time I smashed him on the side of the head with my night stick (baton). He fell immediately, but as I stepped forward, he lashed out at me with the razor, and split my right calf wide open, severing the muscle in the leg.

Since I couldn't stand on the leg, I stood on my left, and struck him three more times on the head, shoulder, and the wrist, breaking his collar bone and his wrist. Then when he tried to roll over to grab the razor with his other hand, I struck him again, on the forehead, knocking him unconscious.

People who saw what happened at a distance only saw a police officer beating up a man, with a baton. Of course they screamed "police brutality," and I too faced a hearing. Had it not been for the woman, and a friend of hers who had gotten away from the assailant, and was a short distance away, I would have probably been charged and convicted of a crime. The funny part is, the one thing I felt I should have done, after he cut me with the razor, was pull my gun, and put a few .357 rounds in his head.

I was cleared of the charges. Yet, every time I went to make an arrest after that, I was a little hesitant on using force. I was beginning to wonder how long it would be until that hesitation cost me my own life, just because some people don't want to see the whole facts surrounding an issue, but opt to see only what they want.

For what it's worth, I just believe we have to wait until all the evidence is weighed on the Barcelona incident, until we know the whole truth.

Wolf

Clearly people misread situations. There are definitely false accounts of racial profiling, but to immediately assume it is not true is to deny that there is also a lot of validity to those complaints. Racism exists in the police force as it does everywhere else. [I am not saying that is what YOU are doing Wolf - I know you are as wise as ever and are waiting for the conclusion of the investigation.] I have seen firsthand the difference in how I am treated and how friends and loved ones of other ethnicities are treated. I never knew my own priviledge until I saw other people were treated and talked about when they were not present. I got pulled over by a policeman for the first time (in the 12 yrs that I have had my license) a few months ago. My good friend, a trilingual, upper- middle class, doctoral student and son of a college professor, who is black, has been pulled over 16 times. His driving habits are equal to mine. He is terrified of police, as is his mother. She never drives even one mile over the speed limit, because tiny, gentle woman is sincerely, profoundly afraid of the police. She has her equally legitimate reasons for that, things she has seen and experienced.

I would like to see more information about this case as well, but I am not going to immediately assume that 4 white police officers badly beating up one black man is completely free of racism. I think that is unrealistic. If it turns out that there were other things at play, so be it. Even better...but most of the symphony musicians I have met are not what one would characterize as "tough guys." Clarinets and violins aren't generally weapons used on the street.

Nicole,

I agree with you to a point. In our society a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. Therefore we cannot assume guilt for a police officer anymore than we can a defendant in any other case, until there is a complete investigation and findings.

Outrageous screams and threats from any part of our community, before the facts are clearly shown, is counter-productive to getting results in the end. It creates more confrontation, and there's already enough to make everyone a little shaky about what can and can't be said and/or done under those circumstances.

I know what you were talking about in regards to the lady and the friend. These acts, of pulling them over, isn't really profiling. What that actually amounts to is bigotry. The stops are just plain harassment. In my opinion, it's a far worse offense than profiling. It's a shame that people have to fear the police, because no matter what the Supreme Court says, the job of a police officer and fireman is to protect and serve the public. These men, who stop people just because they don't like the way they look, are violating that trust and must be dealt with harshly. They should not be allowed to remain in a position of trust, and should be punished under the law, like anyone else.

Wolf

I have read through all the previous posts and the article, and I feel the same as other replies that it is a "wait and see" situation. I think the operative word here is "alleged".

Hi all.

The people here who wants the US embassy and the NAACP to press "Spain" (don't know if it is its justice, its government, its police,...) are implicitly making a matter of fact from just what they have heard in the press:

1) That the alleged victim didn't resist identification.

2) That there was police brutality instead of police rudeness.

3) That the ulterior motive for the alleged brutality was racism.

4) That the spanish justice is not fair, and the Barcelona´s police is that corrupt to not court policemen who extralimited their functions (this one is the most gravest for me).

In fact, some people here has made their own judgement instead of waiting for the justice to make it. When you have a problem with this with the police here you just go to a Comisaría and denounce it. Then the judge investigate the facts and make a veredict, as in any other democratic country. Nor the judge, the police or the government needs pressure from a forgein organization or embassy to make justice and to comply with our constitution. The article 14 states that nobody could be discriminated in reason of its race, sex, social condition, religion, opinion or any other social or personal condition.

So let's do what Wolf and Puna says: Wait until the justice states what happened.

And as free as this country is, of course the US embassy has the right to complain. An american citizen alleged that has been beaten.

The NACCP (as any other international organization) can express their opinion of course, but they should not think of themselves as the international divine justice. In fact, they are judging matters according to an american way of thinking.

The black spanish population is not the 30% like in the US. It is much lower (0,1% may be?), and the majority of the blacks who are living in Spain are centroafrican inmigrants. Among them the crime is higher due to their precariety. And also the majority of them are illegal inmigrants. These are facts, no racial misjudgements.

One last thing: The justice and the press here are very sensitive to racial issues. A week ago a southamerican was beaten by 4 security guards in Barcelona (pure coincidence, Barcelona is not racist at a whole). They then took and threw him to the sea. He died.

Now they are courted (and the penalty will be graver because they recognize there were racial motives) and the press is still taking about the matter.

Best regards!

Fernando

Wolf,
I know it is difficult to swallow, but the NAACP have a lot of influence in the United States. This is a fact and I promise you that if they are not satisfied and become "outraged" they will preasure the US government AND corporations to put preasure on Spain. This will most probably be within the economic arena. The United States nor Spain can shun the political/economic realities of the world we live in. Remember, it is possible(as they have done in the UK)for the NAACP to use this issue to grasp more international recruits. However, I believe the Catalan elite will for sure "work" with the Barcelona police to sort out this situation. I'm confident that, as in most cases, economics will win out.

Just using my very basic powers of deduction.... from what I read the hole thing seems fishy. How can four officers mistakenly beat a black American, english speaking, probably well-dressed man because they think he's a local carthief? Unlikely!
Lets break it down..First of all they would have had to get close enough to him to beat him...its not like they attacked him from afar. When this would have happened the innocent musician would have pleaded out for the men to stop in his native tongue..... English (American dialect). Now if this car thief was as "notorius" as they say he was then they would have had a profile on him....that he was not an American...but in fact a Spaniard or an immigrant from Africa.

Fernando said....

"The black spanish population is not the 30% like in the US. It is much lower (0,1% may be?), and the majority of the blacks who are living in Spain are centroafrican inmigrants. Among them the crime is higher due to their precariety. And also the majority of them are illegal inmigrants."

If this is the case that the percentage of blacks in Spains is so low and they are usually illegal centroafican immigrants...then I wonder what percent of that small percent speak English and dress to the nines...because its not very likely a famous well paid Symphony musician is going to be dressed in Barcelona's latest immigrant street gear.

I'm not saying what the NAACP should or should not do or that the whole thing hasn't been sensationalized through the media but come on already.

I don't want to excuse an improper use of force (by all meanings) but I would want to speak on behalf the common sense in any court: you may not judge by yourself not knowing all the facts. We were not there, we don't know the musician, nor the policemen.

We don't know if the musician was well dressed, we don't know if the policemen spoke english (unlikely, and more unlikely that they could distinguish between the accent of an american an a southafrican or a man from Zimbawe or Kenia, who also speak english), we don't know if the musician resisted agressively (which is a crime tipified by the penal code), we don't know many facts indeed.

Could you distinguish a man from Benin from a man from Tanganika? You are used to live with black americans. For us someone from Norway is practically identic to one from Austria, we can not distinguish a taiwanese from a japanese, and definitely we can not distinguish (I may because I have travel and I speak english, but a policeman may or may not) a black american from an african, although they may be as different as the day and the night. How many black americans do you think we see daily? The first and the last time I saw one in Spain was in the MM party...

Let's not make judgements based on our supositions, fears and feelings, and let's the justice do its job. They media judgements are not usually fair...

If the policemen are guilty they will paid for it. And I hope that if they are guilty and their motives were racial the penalty was graver.

Prudence!

Fernando

Fernando in Spain.....
"The times, they are achangin."
Dylan

Times may change, but some people don't.

Fernando writes -

"Let's not make judgements based on our supositions, fears and feelings, and let the justice (system) do its job. They media judgements are not usually fair...

If the policemen are guilty they will paid for it. And I hope that if they are guilty and their motives were racial the penalty was graver."


I truly think that sums up the situation and how it should be viewed. Spain is a democracy and I believe that justice will take it's course. If, for any reason, this does not occur - than the American Embassy has the right to intervene - the NAACP does not.

I thoroughly understand what is being referred to as "economic sanctions" - but, hey, let's get honest - Spain is one he** of a far cry from South Africa 15 years ago - and, even then, the NAACP did NOT
formulate American economic sanctions.

When the US is COMPLETELY free of biogtry and predujice for all races, religions, sex and sexual preferences - (isn't that a nice idealistic thought) - then we can preach!

Puna Writes --

"When the US is COMPLETELY free of biogtry and predujice for all races, religions, sex and sexual preferences - (isn't that a nice idealistic thought) - then we can preach!"

You go girl! I totally agree with your statement!!....and your previous posts about the NAACP having ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to get involved.

Hello, everybody.
Wolf, thank you for your first hand stories, I know the work of the policemen is hard and not well recognized, I appreciate it. I think a policeman must use the force if someone resists, of course proportional force, gun against gun, baton against unarmed people ... although frontiers between them are not always so clear...
Here in Spain, they have a lot of problems to do their job,i.e. I have heard that if they want an anti-shot jacket (I don't know if this is the word), they have to pay for it (except some specials units), some months ago two basque policemen who were regulating the traffic were killed by ETA and they didn't wear the jacket although they had asked for it because the place was risky...
I think police should be the most interested in solving these problems of abuse that give a bad image of the institution, but it looks they only fight it when it become a press scandal...
Puna I agree with you in NAACP should not be implicated, it's not their field, maybe I didn't express myself well, I think the US embassy in Spain should follow the process as an observer or even as particular accusation acording to Spanish laws.

Ciao.

I just heard that the NAACP might try and go through that "international" Spanish judge.
That's all we need, international economic sanctions. I hope this gets resolved quickly and peacfully!
Visca la Barca!

Toddy,

I don't understand what your concern is. The NAACP doesn't carry that kind of weight.

What kind of "economic sanctions" do you think the NAACP could put against Barcelona, or Spain for that matter? I don't mean to sound trite about this but I think you've given them way too much credit as a power base related to international affairs.

Wolf

Thank you Chica and Miguelito for the kind words - love that "Go girl" - know I can be opinionated - and its nice to have positive reinforcement!

And hooray/bravo for Wolf's comments in that way too much credit seems to be given for what is really not a power base related to international affairs.

[ 02-16-2002: Message edited by: Puna ]

Wolf,
This is a perfect opportunity for the Democrats to test Bush's resolve in "protecting American minority rights" in the world. Today, I just heard that Gore has had a discussion with the NAACP in this matter. Whether you like him or not, Bush has forged a new relationship with Spain. Gore and the democrats would like nothing better than to use this issue against Bush (who is trying to establish a new Spanish language vote). And it's a reality in the United States that the NAACP is a powerful force in change at the state and national level. The United States and Spain should not disregard the problems associated with such charges.
However, I'm personally confident in the Catalans ability to make waves calm.

I wasn’t sure what this post was talking about since the first link doesn’t work anymore. Looks like there’s updated info as of 2/15/02:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020215/ap_on_re_eu/spain_police_beating_2

BARCELONA, Spain - A lawyer for black trumpet player Rodney Mack says racism is not involved in the musician’s complaint against Barcelona police, who threw the American to the ground and beat him. Police said it was a case of mistaken identity.
...

“I felt traumatized — like any moment it could happen again. I’ve been having nightmares. Last night I had this very violent nightmare that someone was attacking me. My wife says it scared her, because I woke up suddenly, screaming.”

Immediately after the attack, the NAACP in the United States and the Spanish anti-racist group SOS Racismo condemned the beating. The NAACP called the case a clear example of racial profiling and urged U.S. intervention, demanding that the ambassador to Spain file a formal complaint. The U.S. consulate in Barcelona sent a letter to the Spanish government expressing its concern about Mack’s treatment.

I personally have my doubts whether the beating would have occurred to such a degree had Mack been white, despite what his lawyer says. Though I’ve been assured on another MM thread that racism isn’t bad here in Spain, my own observations make me wonder and this story only makes it more so.

As for the NAACP intervening in this case... as an American living abroad I can honestly tell you that if something like this happened to me, I would welcome whatever help was offered to me from my government and whatever American organizations wanted to get involved. Sorry if it’s cultural imperialism or what not, I understand the concern, but if the gov or NAACP wants to fight on Mack’s behalf, I say go for it. Just because the U.S.’s own house isn’t perfectly clean doesn’t mean we should ignore transgressions abroad either – especially involving our own citizens. Personally, I think pResident Bush is a complete jerk and his “war on the ‘axis of evil’” is a joke, but I don’t think the U.S. should apologize for being a political and economic superpower either. And in cases like this I think we should use the considerable influence we have to make our concerns heard and changes made.

Personally, I hope the NAACP and the U.S. government rip the Barcelona police a good one so even IF something like this was just a mistake, in the future it’ll never happen again. ("Oye, no debemos golpear este tio tanto... podria ser un Americano..."). That would make ME feel safer living here in Spain too.

Just my thoughts...

-Russ

Well we apparently don't know the true and complete story of this incident. It does appear that the musician resisted arrest breaking the ribs of one of the four policeman!
Having spent a lot of time in Spain over the years, I have never heard of nor seen any discrimination against blacks.
As far as the Spanish justice system is concerned, the police & courts seem to be quite cautious with the rights of the accused & very lenient in the administration of punishment.
In my opinion, this matter should be handled completely by the Spanish legal system with no interference by outsiders such as the NAACP. I'm sure that the Spanish people will feel totally embarrassed & sympathetic with the black musician if he was unjustly detained and it is proven that excessive force was used.
As far as Russ (Lostin madrid)'s comments that our president is a jerk & that our "war on terrorism" is a joke, I guess he is unaware (or indifferent) of what happened at the WTC in NYC on September 11!
Furthermore we should not gloat over nor take advantage of our economic & political power to force our will on other democratic countries.It only reinforces the old stereotype of the "ugly american".

Fine. It's gone.

[ 02-18-2002: Message edited by: LostInMadrid ]

Russ, word of advice for you...
"Personal Bias and overall stupidity, do NOT mix."

Before you start an on-line flame war here, I suggest you read the rules and guidelines for this Message Board.

(And by the way Russ, I happen to be Texan. So don't mess with Texas.)

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: CS ]

Russ,

Way to go! In one fell swoop you called anyone who isn't a "world class traveler" ignorant, anyone who is a Texan stupid, then proceeded to tell us that the WTC, etc., was a figment of our imagination, that a world wide terrorist ring called al Qaeda doesn't exist, and it doesn't link to specific countries who harbor these people, when just about everyone on planet earth knows it's true.

Good job! Not everyone can get both feet in their mouth at the same time. I can do one, but haven't got your skills -

Gee! Thanks for pointing out to us how stupid we really are. We never knew until now -

Wolf

I've enjoyed lingering on this post, and now you'll all be privileged to hear my two euros worth.

First and foremost, the "N" in NAACP is "national". Should they choose to "broaden their influence" they might consider making it the "I"AACP. I know that most Americans look at this group (and with reason) as a black rights group, but, isn't white a color too? How about olive? :p Those catalán police officers could use some advancement too...for now, they should just stick to the N and let the I take care of itself. Spain has done just fine without them for going on 700 years now....hmmm kinda makes you think........ :p

Second, JDR, apparently you haven't been to the "right" spots in Spain, as you say you've yet to witness racism ["Having spent a lot of time in Spain over the years, I have never heard of nor seen any discrimination against blacks"]. Perhaps you've never taken the metro, or a bus, or visited downtown Madrid, Barcelona or any other major city in Spain. If you did, maybe you were sporting your new rose-colored glasses. Anyone who has actually lived in Spain, not as a tourist, but lived in Spain, knows that prejudice and discrimination are (unfortunately) alive and well.

If I were a Spaniard, I wouldn't worry too much about the NAACP getting any sanctions over on you. I'd be more worried about Franco rising from the dead to "reclaim Spain" again...t'aint gonna happen.

CaliBasco [Disclaimer: The preceding was not meant in any way to be a personal attack on JDR...it was simply my way, and most likely a poor one, of driving home a fact to which most Spaniards seem to be oblivious. I can't speak for (nor mess with) Texas :)]

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: CaliBasco ]

I´m a little perdida here because I read Lost In Madrid´s post a couple of times but did not see where he offended Texans. If the reference to his disregard for Bush was an offense to Texans, well it´s a bit of an exaggeration. Frankly I find it embarrassing when the U.S. President doesn´t know the difference between deflation and devaluation. I have nothing against Texans when I say that.

Anyway, I live here in Spain (for the second time in my life) and prior to that have been a tourist here on several occasions and can say with all certainty that discrimination and racism (and all sorts of "isms" such as sexism) exists here, along with a healthy dose of xenophobia... just like in the USA (although I think the USA has gotten better with the treatment and tolerance for immigrants overall). But let´s face it, as few as 10 years ago Spain did not have the immigration concerns that it does today and is only just beginning to build the political and social infrastructure necessary to support such social changes.

CaliBasco writes:

I know that most Americans look at this group (and with reason) as a black rights group, but, isn't white a color too?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the CP stands for Colored People and not so deemed because of the lack of color (or otherwise) in other races, but because at the time of the NAACP´s formation, it was politically incorrect to refer to black person as anything but "colored". The organization "changed" with the times to represent other races, but initially started as a fair rights group for the black population. No?

In any case, I reiterate what has been stated here so many times in that the NAACP has no business getting involved with Americans overseas. As CaliBasco says, the N means National. The US Embassy and US consulates here in Spain (and other countries) exist to protect the interests of Americans abroad (among other activities). If otherwise, I will have to start my own organization of AFTFAO (Association for the Fair Treatment of Filipino Americans Overseas)


P.S. That last statement was written with the intention of irony, to avoid misinterpretation.

Chica,

The post with the Texas reference was removed.

I agree that there is discrimination in Spain. For that matter, I've seen it in every country I've been in. As long as there are people, we can almost count on it existing. If it isn't color of skin, it becomes religion, or even tribes depending on where you are.

It just never goes away, does it?

Wolf

It's human nature to discriminate against others who are different. Heck, even mother hens kill their young when they're acting differently than the other little chickens. Certain humans think they're "evolved" beyond the point of differences and/or biases. Humans deep down discriminate on a daily basis, it's part of our nature. But that DOESN'T mean we cannot supress it too.

And don't think that it's only whites that discriminate. It's also Blacks, Asians, Hindus, Mestizos, and any other group there is. Deep down we are all the same.

Don't blame us, we're only human.

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: CS ]

I believe that the NAACP should be involved. This gentleman was attacked and beaten brutally. This is a case of excessive force by the police. It seems to me that in many of the postings people are more concerned with preserving their nationality than concerning themselves with the brutal act that was inflicted on this individual. I believe that pressure must be applied on all fronts(US embassy, State Dept, or any any organization championing human rights). Look at history. What if the US did not participate in WWII? The jews and others would have been eliminated. Martin luther king said that "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everwhere". Plato in the "republic" says that in order to have a just society we must find justice within ourselves. I have been to Spain twice(98 and 99). There are black americans wanting to study abroad in spain. I am seriously considering a program in oviedo, Spain and though I have not had any problems in Spain I am concerned. Spain has to realize that it is dependent on tourism and if the treatment of this continues people will either boycott or stay away. I personally hope this does not happen. Let us not forget that in Italy a few months ago an Italian was killed by the italian police in an anti- globalization demonstration. They killed one of their own people. So for those of you who might be unconcerned because you are not black, this can also happen to a white person. Where does it end?

CaliBasco sums the entire discussion up perfectly - the N in NAACP stands for national - i.e., not international.
If a foreign organization equivilant to the NAACP started to interfer in a US situation - I bet my last dollar and/or euro that a bunch of people would be screaming mad. When logic ceases to work (we all know where I stand on this issue) there's an old truism that goes "treat others as you would like to be treated" - so before advocating involvement in a foreign country's affairs by an unofficial and national organization - put the shoe on the other foot folks - do you really want to walk like that?

BTW - Chica - loved your thoughts about creating individual organizations - I'll go for NAFRWLS (national association of french/russian women who love spain). Getting tacky here????

Puna (who is getting so aggrivated that her english is turning into trite but appropriate (I think) adages.)

[ 02-23-2002: Message edited by: Puna ]

Puna and others who agree with her. If your reasoning is right, then greenpeace should not be involved in environmental affairs around the world and the WWf should not be in volved with preserving certain animals around the world. The NAACP brings issues to the forefront that deal with blacks and other peoples of color. If they had not been involved in the boycott of South Africa many years ago that system would not have fallen. The boycott had such a huge impact that even musicians did not perform in that country for a long time. I have a question for you Puna. Is spain a democracy? should it not allow critiques from others? you seem to sound like a fascist since you don't want any criticism from one person or one group. Who cares if the N stands for national. This technicality is so ridiculous. European countries have made their feelings known on the death penalty in the U.S. They will not exradite anyone who faces the death penalty here. Please don't get nationalistic and examine the rights of the individual in a democracy. This is why the NAACP should be involved in some role in this because of some of the attitudes expressed here. Get used to it because there will be more pressure from the west on these issues. The E.U. will have to come to terms with these issues if it is to remain competitive in this global market.

Matador, was that your mind closing? Spain IS a democracy, but we are not the son that America has to bring up, perhaps the small brother to care of and that in the future may be your best friend.

Our justice has nothing to learn from US one, perhaps more efficiency, perhaps more hard dealing with terrorists, but definetely nothing to learn in how to deal with potentialy racist crimes.

Yes, americans, american organizations, and the american government through its embassy can express their opinions on the issue. The US embassy may even protest, and you may call for a boicot to Spain, it is your right. But you don't have any right to put pressure to a judge whoever is the victim and whoever are the guilts.

You know what? This matter has passed without notice for the press. The public opinion knows nothing of it, and a protest of the NACPP (an organization of which I first heard of it in this thread)will pass unnoticed, since it is virtually unknown here.

We normally don't have any racism problems here because we have yet no many inmigrants. People are get used to see blacks, moroccians and southamericans. The first times is shocking to see people different, but is something that the time cures. When there is a racist motivated crime (as a ecuatorian killed by some security guards in a discotheque) it is magnified, the people in the streets say how horrible it is, and the judges deal with it properly, without the need of any intervention from forgein organizations, can you believe it?

It is as simple as Puna has put it: The USA is an incredible country, a superpower, probably the hardest-working country in the world. It has lots of things to admire. But it hasn't the universal justice, nor has any right to give lessons of fairness.

I know it is perhaps a bad example but: we have never have slaves here, nor all the crimes associated with the slavery issue, we haven't have a Ku Kux Klan, and hundreds of other embarrasing things. Not any single country is perfect, or has a clean history regarding the dealing of minorities, religious and social tolerance, and trying to extrapolate one's own country problems to another country is really really an error.

Let's the justice decide if there was a crime, and who is guilty of it.

Fernando

Matador,

Please! Don't try to speak for the U.S. If you want to speak for your personal feelings, as an African-American, that's fine. Many of us believe that the Spanish government will do the right thing. I hope that's what you want, and not a lynching of four Barcelona Policemen, because you've decided it's best for a specific cause.

On another issue, leave Greenpeace out of the mix. They themselves are terrorists. Their actions (spiking trees), has led to the death of hard working people in the northwestern U.S., and people died on the ship they sunk as well. God only knows how many deaths can be contributed to their actions, all in the name of the environment. In many ways, they're not much better than a low level terrorist organization themselves.

As far as "why people see the U.S." as the pushy big brother, it's when people want to take the law in their own hands, and tell other nations how they are going to "punish them" for their actions. I suggest that diplomacy is a better resolve for any issues.

Spain is a democracy. They aren't some flea bitten back world nation that's only law is at the end of a gun, or a sword. Let them conclude their work, and let the lawsuit that was filed against the Barcelona Police, etc., run its course.

Fernando,

Don't judge the U.S., and the people of the U.S., on the statements of an individual. Like any democracy, we all have the right to our opinions, just like you do.

Your defense of Spain is admirable, but to most of us, it isn't necessary. We know that justice will be served in the end.

But we also know that the American system, though flawed, is no better or no worse than the Spanish system, and insulting our ways, to defend yours isn't acceptable.

You mentioned slavery. Yes, it was wrong, and we had it here in America. But there was a time when the Spanish empire was supported by the slaves of far off lands, whose labors were strictly for the good of Spain. Whole nations were the slaves. But that isn't an issue any more than the KKK, or slavery in America, is it?

Wolf (Who hates mud slinging. Everyone just gets dirty.)

Just a little clarification on the terms of non-profit organizations for Matador...

Greenpeace is an INTERNATIONAL non-profit with its world headquarters in Amsterdam. Perhaps the idea was an "American born" one, but it has since grown to encompass environmental problems and concerns world wide.

WWF, which stands for WORLD Wildlife Federation is also an "American conceived" non-profit which expanded to international status with offices around the world.

Fernando:

¡Olé!

But, be careful...while America had slavery, as Wolf so succintly put it, it was the Dutch, French, Spanish, Portuguese and other Europeans, as well as African tribal leaders themselves that brought the slaves to the Americas and lived grandly off the profits. Think twice before you judge a country on it´s past history.

Spain may not have the Klu Klux Klan, but there is a certain neighborhood in Madrid that is fast gaining a reputation for its xenophobia and its "terrorizing" of the immigrants that live in the area. Where there is one, there is more...

Matador, I don´t think that Puna (or I because I share her same sentiments) are being nationalistic, but realistic. I am not concerned with preserving "my nationality" as I consider myself international (American from a multi-cultural background, extensive international travel and living outside the USA). What I am concerned with is other countries (whether it is the USA -- NAACP -- or Spain not complying with another countries legal system) interfering where they don´t have the jurisdiction. Period. If the NAACP wants to play in the international arena, then it needs to make itself internationally known.

Matador:

Rules and laws exist for reasons. Even if the "technicality" of them seem insignificant to you from your perspective.

I trust that the Spanish justice system will see a fair end to this very unfortunate incident. Just as I trust in the American legal system, as flawed as it may be, to serve it´s country fairly.

[ 02-24-2002: Message edited by: Chica ]

Wolf and Chica: You missed my point. I was not trying to show how bad the US are, but trying just to show that it is not perfect. Whenever you feel you have the utmost right to give lessons about one issue, you should first stop and see if you are doing what you are requesting others to do.

Of course Spain has one of the worst histories all over the wolrd. We kicked jews, then we kicked muslims, and we lost their abilities. We harrased american indians, enslaved them, we created the Inquisition and we did big horrible things.

Its history doesn't make a country worse or better than others, but is a handicap you must learn to live with, and from which you may get the knowledge to build a better future. I don't know how sensitive the slavery and KKK issue is for americans, if I offended you I'm sorry, it was not my intention, but just trying to back a point of view.

We are not infants telling that our countries are the best, but adults trying to discuss about serious matters

By the way Wolf, I don't judge a whole country by the opinion of a group (God saves me of doing that). I have seen here the wide spectrum of opinions. I may agree or disagree with some or the others. As anywhere not everyone thinks akind, and we must respect it.

Also, don't judge my country for my opinions, not every spaniard thinks like me

Fernando

You are all missing the point. The Naacp should exert its influence with the state department. But it can still express its outrage with the spanish government. By the way many of my questions were rhetorical. Of course I know that spain is a democracy. Hopefully the courts will make the right decisions on these officers even though in a democracy unjust decisions can be made. In regards to greenpeace and the WWF, these organizations started out as grassroot organizations and then became international. This was precisely my point. I don't hate spain and as a matter of fact so many of my friends tell me I should move there because I talk about it so much. Who knows? maybe i'll meet a sexy spanish woman who might disagree with me and we'll get married. Any takers.

As an African-American male, I think it would be interesting to see how this turns out. I do believe that we must look at all sides of the story before passing judgement on anyone.

When I was in Spain, I was followed in many stores, but so were the white students that I studied with. Police would walk closely behind me. I didn't give it a second thought.

If I were to say something everytime Ithought someone did something to me because I was Black, I would never sleep. I am going to return to Spain next year and I am looking forward to it. If I truly feel that I am being discriminated against, I will say something in me defense.

In a nutshell, I do not represent all African-Americans, for this is just my point of view. I like to look at all sides of a story and investigate before coming to a conclusion.

sedredv, I am curious about what city you were in when this happened. The only run in I had with the cops was in Madrid. I was about to take a picture of the ejercito del aire building, when a plain clothes office came out of nowhere, flashed his badge in a nice manner and said "I'm sorry but you cannot take a picture of that building." I just figured that maybe it was due to the ETA threat in Spain. I have not had any experiences in any city in Spain where a shopkeeper was impolite or where I was followed. I'm not saying that your story isn't valid, but just that I have been lucky so far.

Matador,

This actually happened to me in Madrid and I always said something. It wasn't rude, but just to let them know that I was aware of the situation. These situations turned out to be nothing in the end, but I don't care where I am, I alaways say soemthing if I feel that a situation isn't right.

I am moving back to Madrid next year and am actually looking forward to it. I know that racism and bull**** happens eveywhere in this world and I just have to deal with it as it comes along.

It mad a difference also that I spoke Spanish very well. That always surprised the person and threw them off guard. They always started in English I responded in Spanish.

Shawn

Much to your collective disappointment, I'm back...

Matador: There is no point to be missed, and it looks like all others seem to have understood what I said earlier about the N in NAACP. They have no business being involved. However, if a publicly-elected individual (i.e. George W., et. al.) would choose to exercise his "by the people, for the people" directive to get involved, that would be within his sworn duties of protection of Americans and our Constitution, wherever.

I don't remember voting anyone into the NAACP, as this isn't how they operate. As was stated earlier by another intelligent [and astute] individual, the NAACP has their hands full in the N, and shouldn't worry about the INT'L. I'm also fairly certain that since this issue hasn't hardly been touched by any of the major news outlets, that the "influence" that [the NAACP] has in the "state department" would do little other than waste valuable time.

I think the comment Wolf made is appropriate: We can be confident that justice will be served. I would add that the protections are in place and the process of appeal is available should any foreign national feel that justice has not been served. These things are guaranteed by the Spanish Constitution.

I know it's a totally naive question, but can somebody explain what NAACP stands for?. May be it was included in the threat, but I could find it.

Nativo --

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

Not naive at all! I am sure that I don´t know what all the Spanish anacronyms stand for! (You know, PSOE, PP, UGT, etc!)

I've read all the thread about this topic and now I've a little-big doubt. I don't want to bother to anybody with my question so I hope I can ask it correctly.

My question is about how "black people" must be called. I have put black people betten quotes because I don't know if it is offensive or not.

I'm asking it because as I can see, NACCP stands for: National Association for the Advancement of COLORED PEOPLE.

Here in Spain, my girlfriend worked few years ago talking with young childrens about racism and tolerance and she told me that we are white and they are back (in Spanish somos blancos y ellos negros). She said me that is ill-manered and a bit racist when you say "gente de color" (colored people as in the NACCP) or even when you use tiny words "negritos" (¿little black people?) because it seems that you are ashamed of saying "negro" (black).

But, as I can see, maybe in English is just the contrary because the NACCP stands for ... COLORED PEOPLE istead of BLACKS or BLACK PEOPLE.

Can anyone clarify me this issue? because I wouldn't like to bother anybody using the wrong term.

Thanks!

Hombre Gizon,

The NAACP was founded about 100 years ago, and during that period in American culture the term- colored person/people was considered the polite and politicaly correct manner in the United States to refer to black people.

Today in the US, the term African American or Afro-American is considered the most politiaclly correct, however black person is also accepted.

Regards,
Shawn

Maybe this news(it's in Spanish) could help Matador and any other who thinks like him to reconsider their opinion of (what I think) is an isoleted fact. http://www.el-mundo.es/2000/09/20/cultura/20N0135.html
It's more or less the same fact, a famous Spanish gipsy dancer was beated in the JFK airport of NY by the police,

Shawn, I am curious about your spanish exploits. Tell me, are going back to study or work and if so, have you been to Oviedo Spain?
I am considering a atudy abroad in oviedo.What other cities have you visited? What are your accomodations? I realize that this is off topic. By the way miguelito, I was in New York during christmas when two white men were caught after they lured two mexicans with the promise of diong construction work for them. They beat the two mexicans with shovels. It was a brutal act that put them in the hospital. The victims have left the U.S. for good. They went home to Mexico.The U.S. is not exempt from this kind of behavior. Nevertheless it is still sickening.

Miguelito,

Thanks for posting the article. It's very interesting.

If I read El Mundo's account of the situation correctly, after translating it, they feel that what happened at JFK was part of an "ongoing conspiracy against Spaniards," and "symptomatic of all that's wrong with the U.S."

Was this a Spanish official who said that or was it a reporters view? If it was a Spanish official, he's an idiot. He's also so damned "anti-American" that he really doesn't want to hear the truth, just wants to blast all Americans. Does the description, "anal retentive" seem to apply here?

I love it! So now we let the Barcelona case slip away, because we're even? Bzzzzt - Wrong answer! We need justice in both cases. If there was something wrong in either or both instances, the issues must be addressed individually, but not by throwing anti-American or anti-Spanish rhetoric around.

Wolf (Who's beginning to believe that politicians and journalists both are sniffing too much glue.)

Whew,
I didn't mean to heat up the posts, but I think that these issues, however difficult, should be discussed.

However, my point was basically an economic one. As Spain and the US develop closer ties, especially through the expansion of NAFTA, I think it is important for both countries to learn about each other (and not just through Arnold or Almadovar movies).
As in any close relationship, it is important to understand both each other's sensabilities and vulnerabilities. The more we communicate these difficult emotional issues, the more we will build a solid relationship; a great relationship, I believe, that will allow both countries a very happy and prosperous future!

Hi Wolf, I don't know if you have understand it OK, it doesn't talks about conspiracy against Spanish or anything like that...
It jus present the bad treatment as an isolated action, that perhaps happens more often, but it's a new just this time because it happenned to Spanish famous person. They also complain about the procedure because when a foreigner is captured they must tell to the consulate, and talks about the official complainings and investigations that will take place. Only the opinion in the last two parragraphs prejudges Americans and is out of place, it's by the responsable of Esternal Politic of the third national wide political party (although they have a very small representation in the parlament).
What I wanted to show with this link is that these things happens everywhere, probably much more times than we know, and probably they will be only punished when it become a new. Of course they should be punished always, but incidents like these shouldn't affect the relation between two countries, in my point of view.