Ok, you language people! Once again my students have challenged the need for the word boligrafo claiming it would never be used in Mexico. I learned it in Spain back in 1967 and am required to teach it because of the text I use. HOWEVER, I feel I have to check this whole thing out! I am interested particularly in hearing from folks who have used Spanish in a variety of countries: do you generally hear pluma used more than boligrafo?
(of COURSE I told the kids that having a rich vocabulary is important!)

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: la maestra ]

In some South American countries "boligrafo" would only be used to describe a reeeeeally nice, fancy, expensive pen, like a Parker. "Pluma" is used more often than not, and some places they casually say "lapiz" for both pens and pencils.

La Maestra,
I just used my "Diccionario Durvan de la Lengua Española" and did not find the term boligrafo listed. I did find the term pluma described as a writing instrument. However, in my language studies I have always understood that boligrafo was a term used to designate ball point pen, while pluma was an ink injected, or ink dipped pen. In will ask our Spanish linguistics expert at our college , who happens to be from Mexico, and ask her this question.

In terms of usage, which is what really counts in language, I have heard my library colleagues from Mexico, Columbia, Bolivia, and Venezuela use the term boligrafo, while my Spanish Caribbean colleagues from cuba and Puerto Rico use the term pluma more often. I will check our copy of the Diccionario from the Real Academia Española and check how they define boligrafo. I don't have an etimological diccionary of the Spanish language.

I agree with Nicole's thoughts on this subject that the use of boligrafo is used as a refined form of writing instrument.

As a funny aside though, in Costa Rica, the term pluma means 'simpático". so I wonder if they use boligrafo instead of pluma for a pen? Muy interesante!



[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Booklady ]

Wow! I'm happy to have a Spain story on this topic!!

A couple years ago I went into a papelería in Madrid which had a HUGE selection of pens in all price ranges. I was in the company of my ladyfriend (una madrileña), but still, the entire situation happened IN SPANISH with the store owner/clerk.

I wanted to buy a nice pen, or at least an unusual one, for a coworker who has a fetish for pens. I asked for a "pluma" and the clerk showed me hundreds of fountain pens.. that is to say, pens that were used with ink-wells, those pens into which one would dip liquid ink in order to use. I kept saying, "No. Estoy buscando una pluma normal." and he kept showing me more fountain pens, but less expensive. FINALLY, I held up a display model of a ballpoint pen and both the clerk and my ladyfriend said, "¡Ay! Quieres decir un BOLIGRAFO" (o un "boli"). I was embarrassed, but what could I do? I ONLY learned that "una pluma" was a pen and didn't realize the different varieties.

I believe that whenever my ladyfriend asks me to hand her a standard ballpoint pen from the desk she always asks for "un boli" (or "boligrafo").

I can't really say how they're called in Latin America, though. Sorry. I might suggest launching your question in the Spanish language forums here on the message board to get a broader range of responses. I know we had a recently joined message board member from Mexico. Maybe he/she would know. Oh yes! It was "The MexicanTraveler".

Saludos, MadridMan (still confused)

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Oh, MM, you've found a big soft spot of mine! I love fountain pens and am always delighted by the selection of them in various Spanish stores, ranging from art stores to tobacco shops. My husband and I came home with three new ones (or was it four?) after our trip there in March.

General question for Spanish people on the board...do many people use fountain pens (liquid ink pens--refillable from ink wells or with cartridges)? I always assume that a higher proportion of the population must use them there, compared with here in the US, because there are so many available in stores (and at all sorts of prices--here, they tend to be "status" pens, but in Spain, you can find really nice ones, or trendy ones, or cheap ones, or whatever).

Now if someone would tell me where to buy lovely, heavy, monogrammed stationery in Spain (to go with my fountain pens), I would be in heaven!

I remember being corrected on the bolígrafo/pluma issue as well. Shopkeepers always are very helpful and knowledgeable about those fountain pens, I have found!

Tara (whose handwriting is ONLY legible when I use a fountain pen with quick-drying ink because I am a lefty)

[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: taravb ]

taravb, I'm a lefty too (writing from above the line). Smear! Smear! Smear!

Hello from Madrid!
MMan is absolutely correct about the use of the word bolígrafo, or rather "boli" in Spain.
I don't think the use of ink injected or ink dipped pens is widespread at all these days. It seems to me that a while ago, it was customary to give plumas as presents, just like one would buy the traditional necktie, scarf, perfum or chocolates.
I'm trying to get info about good places for beautiful stationery. In the meantime, I can explain what "tener pluma" means in modern castellano, it means to be extremely affected or queer. Same thing happens with "entender", If you're asked by a Spanish person if "¿tu entiendes?", it may mean: do you understand(whatever)?, but there's a chance they're asking if you're gay. How tricky, uh?. My advice....think of the context!!
Saluditos

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: pim ]

I was really surprised to see 6-responses and never see the term lapizero mentioned. Am I the only Spanish-speaking member who uses that term for boligrafo? I haven't been to Mexico since '95 - it's not Mexican. And when I ask a desk clerk at a hotel in Spain for un lapizero, he/she seems to understand me perfectly.
BTW
Since '95, I have probably spent a total of more than 60-days in Spain (spread over six visits). My spoken/written Spanish is that of the Comunidad de Madrid, spoken rapidly, as in Cantabria.

Hi Eddie!,
En España:
(Lápiz) o lapicero=pencil (wood, plastic or metal, but NO ink, the kind that can be erased)

saludos, p.

Taravb, there are a lot of people here in Spain that prefears to use a "pluma" rather than a "boli", although in the last years, this is changing as good ball points are in the market.
The reason? I think that it's easier to write with a pluma as you have to make less force to write. I don't know if they still do it on shcolls, but when I learned to write, during a couples of years they obliged me to use a "pluma" in the shcool; they said it was better to develop a wand-writting stile.
As a couriosity, usually when there is a signature of an important document here in Spain (i.e. alliances of companies, big loans, etc.) they allways use a pluma instead of a bolígrafo. Why? I am not sure, but seams like more formal, and they usually gave also a pluma to the key people who attend to the act.

La Maestra,
As promised I went to the Diccionario de la Lengua Españolaby the Real Academia Española, Vigésima Primera Edición, pagina 216:

Bolígrafo - Instrumento para escribir que tiene en su interior un tubo de tinta especial y, en la punta, en lugar de pluma, una bolita metálica que gíra libremente.
Bolígrafo - a writing instrument with a tube on the inside filled with special ink, and at its point instead of a nib,it has a metal ball point that rotates freely.

My linguistics colleague says the following: Bolígrafo refers to a ball-point pen of some type; and a pluma is what we commonly call a fountain pen. However, she says that to the public at large the term pluma in Mexico is the most commonly used term.

I hope this information helps.


Eddie,
Lapicero refers to a writing instrument that uses graphite instead of ink as would a pluma or bolígrafo. We use the term mechanical pencil.

Fascinating discussion!



Booklady - the librarian, who believes that a good book is a friend for life!

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Booklady ]

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Booklady ]

Felix:
That used to also apply to Ecclesiastical documents (eg. marriage certificates, etc.) that are generally 'firmado y sellado' by the signatories. Also, formal invitations and other types of documents are often done with an ink pen. There is a practical reason for that: ink will dry and not smear but something written with a ballpoint pen, or boligrafo will have a tendency to smear.
Pim:
I am well aware of the dictionary definitions for lapiz (pencil) & lapizero (mechanical pencil). My earlier post referred to usage of the term lapizero for a ballpoint pen, which I got from relatives in the 'heart of Madrid' (if I am correct using that term for C/Arrieta).

Who would'a "thunk" this thread could've gotten as big as Mont Blanc!?? (I went atop Mont Blanc in 1992 )

MM, we lefties have particular problems with lapices, don't we? I end up with a gray hand.

Thanks, everyone, for letting me know about the current uses of plumas in Spain; I am glad to hear that some schools have encouraged their use. I really prefer fountain pens, and have used them since about 8th grade. They are a pain on planes and in the bottom of a purse, but the rest of the time, they are really smooth. I write quickly and (because of being a lefty) need ink that dries fast--ballpoints are WAY too smeary. An inexpensive fountain pen will still work well...though the Watermans and Mont Blancs are pretty nice to look at! I teach, though, and my students often borrow my pens--so it's better to have ones that they can't destroy or walk off with. Many nibs will be deformed by another writer using the pen.

I always laugh when they publish photos of the US President signing a new law...there is usually a big line of plumas available, and the Prez has to use each one as he signs his name. That way the various dignitaries can say, "look, I got the pen he wrote the letter 'e' with!"

Happy scribbling, folks (why do I suspect that most of us do VERY little handwriting anyway--it's all typing nowadays!)

Tara

Hi Eddie,
Nobody from Spain would use the term lapicero to refer to a pen(bolígrafo), basically, because they're two completely different objects; which is what I tried to convey with my own definition in my earlier message. Both things are instruments used to write on paper, but a glass and a mug, for instance, can both be used to drink from them, and still you would't use those two words without distinction, although of course, if you asked for either one you'd be understood.
Hi Booklady!
I don't think anybody has mention yet that pluma=feather; it's only logical that the first writting instruments would be call exactly what they where, right?
Saludos a todos!

Damn! I write on this topic but somehow my post wasn't saved. Anyway it has all been said. In Spain we call these objects in three different ways: Bolígrafo (shortend boli), pluma and lapicero (or lápiz).

Very insteresting issue

Fernando

I always have to put in my dos pesetas...oh, BTW, MM and taravb: Soy zurdo, también, y sufro la enfermedad de la mano gris...

I always learned, as has been said, that boli was a ballpoint, and pluma was a fountain pen. As far as lápiz and lapicero, lápiz is the good old fashioned yellow pencil, while the lapicero was explained to me by my españolito friends as being the mechanical pencil variety.

Going back to the original question as to the utility of learning "bolígrafo": Tell your students to stop being so lazy or you'll use one to poke their ojo! I found in my teaching days that the kids liked saying "boli" over "pluma" anyway.

Hey, booklady: Did the Diccionario de la Real Academia really spell that verb "escrivir? Who wrote that rubbish?!

Thanks to all of you for your help!

Booklady, I appreciate your doing research for me!

MM, my first experience with the word was much like yours: I arrived in Spain feeling very confident about my Spanish, went to a local store to get a pen and discovered I didn't know how to ask for one, having only learned pluma in the US!

Thanks to those of you who could indicate which countries and in which situations one might use this word...which exactly match how I thought the word was used. If the word had fallen out of use and I hadn't noticed, I'd sure want to make some revisions in my vocabulary list!

Calibasco, this is again one of those Nogaleño problems. The parents of my students discuss the lessons with their children (which is good) and then decide that the Anglo teacher cannot possibly know the right word (which is bad.) In this case, two students challenged the word at the start of class, claiming that their families believed that I was wasting the class's time by making them learn unnecessary vocabulary that would only be used in Spain. I asked the girl if the addition of this one word was so difficult that she was experiencing some sort of cerebral meltdown. When she said "Of course not!" I asked what exactly the problem was she said there was simply no reason to learn anything that her family in Nogales wouldn't use! Ah, the joys of teaching!

Anyway, I will present the information you folks have given me to the ENTIRE class so the students know that I actually look into challenges to see if they have merit. I really don't mind these sorts of challenges because they usually wind up teaching me a lot about language, but I get my feathers ruffled when learning a single word becomes a political issue.

la maestra(who will be a librarian someday. Hey...when that happens do I have to change my name to la bibliotecaria?)

Cali,
Shame on me! Please forgive me folks and don't blame the Real Academia, but Booklady was Bad!

Hi CaliBasco(what an interesting name)!
Lápiz is short for lapicero.
Booklady,
Twelve years ago I was an exchange student at a H.S. in Ohio, and even though I'm a españolita, I confess that I took a Spanish class for one semester. Why?, honestly, because it'd raise my average grade, and to hang out with my best friends who also took it. (I know, shame, shame; but I didn't speak English at first, I'd learned French at school!). I tell you this because I must have been a little bit of a nuisance for "señora"(it still sounds weird), because she insisted in using words such as anteojos for glasses and carro for car, and refused to teach also the Spanish(from Spain) versions: gafas and coche. And I rather not remember the paella that she once concocted in the classroom!, it was what I'd call "aguachirri". But please don't get me wrong, I remember her very fondly
Anyway, I guess that if language teachers don't travel to the language speaking places, or keep in close and permanent contact with nativos, in other words, they don't do their homework :), they're likely to use words or phrases 'obsoletas'.

BTW, I have a question; what is the most commonly used word in the US these days for a secretarial position? Do you still use 'secretary' or just 'assistant'? Sorry but too much time working for a British law firm with everybody saying 'PA' makes me wonder.
Thanks in advance!

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: pim ]

Pim wrote:
"Nobody from Spain would use the term lapicero to refer to a pen (boligrafo) ..."

I must apologize! I didn't realize that you were vested with the authority to speak for the entire (indigenous) population of Spain.

Wrong, Pim! I have heard the term lapizero used in Spain, by educated people born and raised there to refer to a ballpoint writing instrument. :p

On another subject:
We had a very animated thread going here some time ago about teaching (and using) the second person plural (Vosotros). Many of the Spanish language textbooks used in the U.S. omit that, yet when I am speaking with relatives in Madrid (Barcelona, Pontevedra or Huelva) the second person (singular or plural) is used almost exclusively. Didn't you find that unusual when you coasted thru a course in HS Spanish?
P.D.
Sorry I mis-quoted you. You may note that I corrected my quote of your statement in this edit. (i.e., 'lapicero,' not 'lapizero')

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Eddie ]

Eddie,
I really don't get this. If you are so sure about the use of a word, what's the point in asking about it? please tell me, why ask in the first place? I quote: "Am I the only Spanish-speaking member who uses that term for bolígrafo?". No wonder you were surprised to see nobody else's responses mentioned lapicero(with a c).
I'm sorry if you don't like my answer to your question, but I was just trying to help!!(since I'm also an educated born and raised Spaniard).
I only 'discovered' this site and the forum three or four days ago, and I find it outstanding! So I would have never 'contributed' or said anything if I wasn't a hundred percent sure of what I said.
Saludos everyone.

Sorry. Pim! Please don't let my comments discourage your continued participation on MadridMan's message boards. You will find several other Madrileños who are regular contributors.
¡Bienvenida!
BTW
The title 'Secretary' used to mean someone proficient in shorthand (taquigrafia), and all the other administrative functions of an office. Administrative Assistant used to be a higher status than Secretary (i.e., person in charge of the Secretarial pool).

Things have changed: People who used to and may still hold a status (job title) of clerk typist or file clerk at one level or another often describe themselves as Administrative Assistants or Secretaries. It's mostly an ego thing. Once, on National Secretaries' Day, I had to 'foot the bill' for flowers for seventeen (17) lady clerical employees who processed claims in my Division.

In a Law Firm, the Legal Secretary is almost always a Soliciter (Attorney at Law).

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Eddie ]

Eddi, Pim is completely right and no Spanish would use lapicero to refer to a pen (bolígrafo).
If you go to a stationery and ask for a lapicero be sure that you will never get a ballpoint.
BTW, the term lapicero is not very used and usually we talk about lapiz. In relation with "mecanical lapiz" we have another term for them: portaminas.

In some South American countries - especially in the southern parts of the continent - they use the word 'el birome' instead of 'el bolígrafo'. Quite confusing!

Eddie, it's OK, thanks so much!
Felix, ¡gracias por tu ayuda, y tienes razón!

P.D.:
¡Por Dios, pero qué frío hace hoy!
The best thing to do is to take a good siesta :p

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: pim ]

Mi felow co-citizens (Felix and Pim).

Why are you so sure on how a word is used across Spain?

I'm only sure of how the spanish of Madrid is. But I can only guess how it is used in other regions.

For example, while in almost every region the word autobús (for bus) is used, in the Canary Islands the only term for that word is guagua.

I wouldn't bet that in some corner the word lapicero is used instead of bolígrafo.

Sometimes a forgeiner may teach us some unusual usages of our own language. Keep open minded!

Fernando

Pim, I appreciated your comment about the need for a language teacher to travel and/or keep in contact with nativos. You are absolutely correct...that is why I am delighted to have folks like you posting on this board to help me stay current! I travel as much as I can, but there is no way I can go everywhere that Spanish is spoken to keep up with language variations and usage!

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: la maestra ]

OH NO!! Here we go again!
Fernando, please, I'm very open minded; however, in my just about 31-year-old life I still haven't heard anybody call a boli lapicero!
As a child I lived in San Sebastian, Santander, Valencia & Huesca for short periods of time, then Zaragoza(10 years!), and as an adult I've studied in Mallorca, and had to work in Ronda, Algeciras, Marbella & San Pedro de Alcántara. Plus of course, holidaying in Tarragona, Canarias, Alicante, etc, etc, over the years. My boyfriend is cacereño, and my best girlfriend from León/Oviedo. (I really can't believe I had to tell all this to make my point!!)
I'm positive I was able to tell the difference since I was in kindergarden and (I'm pretty sure) so were you!
A GUAGUA is an autobús for los canarios, most everybody knows that here, but guagua HAS NO OTHER MEANING, it's not the word ANYBODY uses for....let's say....furgoneta! See the difference?
Have a great weekend everyone!

[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: pim ]