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#60433 - 07/14/01 04:05 PM Re: U.S. President in Spain
cantabene Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/00
Posts: 185
Loc: Baltimore, MD, USA
Toddy says:
"I LOVE BUSH FOR BRIDGING TWO WORLDS!! Every Spaniard has to admit that Bush has done more for Spanish American relations than ANY other US president."

Baloney. How brief are our memories.

President Dwight Eisenhower did more, although admittedly through enlightened self interest. We needed the Spanish bases.

Nevertheless it was Eisenhower's initiatives in negotiating the American bases that enabled Spain to begin to escape the stigma of having been sympathetic to the wrong side in WW2.

Those initiatives also gave a big push to Spanish efforts to promote its tourism industry.

Bush has done nothing that comes even close to what Eisenhower did to help Spain enter the postward world.
Cantabene

[ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: cantabene ]

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#60434 - 07/14/01 05:37 PM Re: U.S. President in Spain
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Cantabene,

Actually the gradual shift towards US/Spain relations began in the early 40s, during WWII. The U.S. & Great Britain kept communications channels open with Franco's government by allowing oil and grain to be shipped into Spain, despite their stance as a "non-beligerent" but associated with the Axis.

In agreements reached, Franco finally brought Spain into a neutral stance in 1943, and began limiting the shipments of goods to axis powers. One of the main raw products being wolfram (tungsten).

Before and after this time, Franco allowed the underground railroad that was helping Jews & Allied air personnel to operate freely, and in a worse case scenario, made the people who escaped from the Axis controlled areas to stay in Spain, until the end of hostilities.

The Foreign Ministry portion of the Spanish government had already began their swing towards the Allies as early in 1941, even though they were outwardly saying they supported the Axis.

Franco made it official, in the summer of 1943, when he appeared at a function no longer wearing his Falangist uniform, opting for a naval uniform instead, and stated that Spain was neutral. It marked the end of the government claiming they leaned towards the axis. In fact, behind the scenes, they had already began to assist the Allies in many ways, and then removed their volunteer army (I believe it was the 250th regiment of the German Army, which had been 40,000 men strong)from the Russian front.

At that time, FDR began looking at ways to open up relations even further with Franco, and after his death, President Truman continued the efforts. The culmination was the events that took place during the Eisenhower administration, and the opening of naval bases such as Rota.

The Spanish government (according to old State Department records) was concerned that the German army would attempt to land a force in the Iberian peninsula to capture Gibralter, and that fear didn't pass until the Germans themselves were shown as not invincible in Africa. If it happened, Spain's government indicated they would fight against the Germans, and stated they would welcome help from the Allies, because they did not intend to allow Germany to bring the war to them.

Even though there were mixed signals given outwardly, behind the scenes, the ties between the Allies and Spain had already advanced beyond neutrality, and they were more or less siding with us.

If I recall correctly, our Ambassador to Spain at that time was named Hayes, and he ended up being at the center of the negotiations. His close ties with FDR, and the fact that Franco always welcomed him for private discussions indicate that Hayes may very well have been one of the two men who carried out secret negotiations. The other would have been the Ambassador from Great Britain.

As for Eisenhower, he was deeply involved in the negotiations as Commander of Allied Forces, so when he actually became President, the swing was pretty easy to make.

Anyway... That's what I learned from reading over 100 books on Spanish-American relations from 1931 to present.

Wolf (Who has to get a life outside of reading, writing, and scratching fleas rolleyes )

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#60435 - 07/14/01 05:54 PM Re: U.S. President in Spain
toddy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 303
Loc: USA
Nice job Wolf! A fellow historian. Great information. You can be the official historian in a club I'm trying to start to promote Spain/American relations.
However, I will still assert that Bush has bridged two worlds more than any other president. He is the first president to give his radio address in Spanish. The first to officially celebrate Cinco de Mayo at the White House. The first president to take his first foreign trip to a Spanish speaking country(I believe wolf, feel free to correct me on this), and the first president who's first stop in Europe was Spain. Viva Hispanidad y the United States!
(do you want to join wolf?) rolleyes smile

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#60436 - 07/14/01 06:04 PM Re: U.S. President in Spain
Nativo Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/01
Posts: 332
Loc: Madrid
I really regret not have been able to attend to the dinner in Madrid...., with that kind of topics in a dinner you were headed for trouble, I've lost the fun.

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#60437 - 07/14/01 07:31 PM Re: U.S. President in Spain
cantabene Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/00
Posts: 185
Loc: Baltimore, MD, USA
Toddy says:
"However, I will still assert that Bush has bridged two worlds more than any other president."

Toddy may assert it, but I have yet to see any more bridges than were there previously.

Wolfgang: I do not doubt the accuracy of your reserach. But I was in Spain in the early 1950s when Eisenhower visited there for the first time. I recall that Spain remained somewhat of a pariah to many nations. And I recall the excitement that Ike's visit generated among the Spanish people within my purview.

My point was that Bush is hardly the "first" US president to contribute to enhancing Spanish-American relations, as your research affirms.

I just get a bit tired of the Bush sycophants making claims for him that are not justified. Heck, the man couldn't even work up enough interest in Spain to learn to pronounce Mr. Aznar's name correctly.
Cantabene

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#60438 - 07/14/01 07:31 PM Re: U.S. President in Spain
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Toddy,

You're absolutely right about Bush being the first President to visit Spain. Even though his Spanish wasn't the greatest, he at least had the courtesy to give it a try. I commend him for that but still wouldn't vote for him. frown

Toddy - send me an email in reference to what you're considering doing. It's in my profile.

Wolf (Who's watching Charlie Chan and typing this, so forgive any errors. smile )

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#60439 - 07/15/01 10:05 AM Re: U.S. President in Spain
Asterault Offline
Member

Registered: 01/22/01
Posts: 536
Loc: Gijón
Boy, someone gets upset easily don't they? All I did was correct an erroneous comment about referring to a country as socialist when it has the most open economy in the EU.

Plenty of hungry people in the States. In poor health too. If you take a trip to the cities and go to the poor parts you will see things far worse than anything in Spain.

A little more objectivism and less flag waving would be in order.

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#60440 - 07/15/01 10:55 AM Re: U.S. President in Spain
Wolf Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 1235
Loc: Rockford, IL/Milton, WI, USA
Asterault,

You're absolutely right. One of the biggest problems with capitalism is that it pushes social programs aside in favor of higher profits for corporations, and wages for those who are working, and paid at a higher level.

As a result, the poor get poorer, and from what I've heard, roughly one out of six Americans who is scraping by is no more than two paychecks away from being homeless.

Wolf frown

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#60441 - 07/15/01 02:13 PM Re: U.S. President in Spain
cantabene Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/00
Posts: 185
Loc: Baltimore, MD, USA
Wolfgang says:
"Toddy,
You're absolutely right about Bush being the first President to visit Spain."

And with that fallacy, Wolfgang, you have invalidated your research. Eisenhower beat Bush to Spain by 5 decades.
Cantabene

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#60442 - 07/15/01 02:23 PM Re: U.S. President in Spain
cantabene Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/00
Posts: 185
Loc: Baltimore, MD, USA
Asterault says:
"Plenty of hungry people in the States. In poor health too. If you take a trip to the cities and go to the poor parts you will see things far worse than anything in Spain."

Might you be a bit more specific? I live in Baltimore--where if you are going to find poverty you would find it here. No one goes hungry here or in the USA. The US Department of Agriculture gives away tons of food nation-wide through its Domestic food assistance programs.

Citywide, local charities augment that by providing free meals to anyone who wants them. Here in Baltimore, one of the more active is the Catholic Charities.

Anyone suffering or dying from malnutrition in the USA would be front page news. It doesn't happen--unless one is too stupid to locate one of the many sources of free meals.
Cantabene

[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: cantabene ]

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